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Abortion is now illegal in the 2nd trimester. WTF?

I can't believe the conservative government passed this right under our nose last month. 2nd trimester = 13 weeks. What are the consequences - jail time? How could this happen? In our lifetime, Roe v Wade will be overturned. WE HAVE to do something.

Thu. Jul 26, 10:48am

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Yes, lets kill all babies!

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:50 AM

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I think it is legal, but only with special circumstances. I am from PA, and it has been illegal here forvever. 12 weeks was always the cut-off. Anyway, I believe that if you need more than 12 weeks to decide if you are keeping it, you have problems. I think its a great cut-off, and a good compromise. I am totally pro-choice, but the first tri-mester is really enough time.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:52 AM

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Your comment was rude. She wasn't suggesting we kill all babies.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:52 AM

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10:50 -
there is something wrong with you

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:53 AM

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I am with you and totally pissed off. I guess for them Conservative means 'no government intervention' unless it has to do with the most intimate details of a one's personal life. AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:54 AM

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Or an even better idea, if you don't want to make babies take some personal responsibility and use one of the many forms of birth control out there. Then you won't have to take a life to make up for your mistake (And don't throw the rape situation at me, I agree that's a different situation, but that's a small percentage of cases).

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:55 AM

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Actually, I learned that it is illegal. It is now a federal law. You can no longer have an abortion after 12 weeks. Sometimes you don't even know you're pregnant until after the 1st trimester. Sometimes harm can come to the mother. This is a choice. It should not be against federal law. Roe V Wade is in total jeapordy.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:56 AM

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This forum sure does love an arguement! What a great topic to bring up for a good ol' fight.



Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:56 AM

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I am the OP. This is not for a fight. This is to inform. I was in absolute shock yesterday when I learned it.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:57 AM

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If you don't want kids either be more careful with protection or get "fixed". If you can't (or won't) take responsibilities for your actions you shouldn't do it. There should be no need for abortion unless the baby has severe deformaties or it will kill the mother or in cases of rape/insest. Hmmm ... too bad you mom didn't have the option to choose like you want.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:58 AM

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YES BUT you can NO LONGER terminate for rape/incest or severe deformaties. IT IS AGAINST FEDERAL LAW. This is the point. This is completely fucked up.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:00 AM

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To all the people that are saying just use protection, get out of your fairy dream worlds and look at our country. Over 75% of abortions are made by teenage women, the same ones you are trying to educate with your "abstinence" BS. In our ghettos, in our poor areas, that is where it happens. If you want every poor underproviledged woman thought a husband out there to have her child, sure, ban abortion. Let's keep our young girls in poverty and out poor even poorer.

There is too much history in this, too much effort has been made towards women's rights for Roe Vs. Wade to be overturned, we can not let it happen. If you notice, most of the people who are trying to overturn it are old white-haired fat men. Should they decide what we can do with our bodies? Abortion will always happen, and always has. Making it legal just makes it safe, that's all. Thanks, OP, for bringing this up. This requires serious attention.

And to those who still dont think abortion should be legal, I advise you to pick up one of the thousands of books that can give you a bit of insigt into the fights and struggles women went through to give us that right to have a safe and legal abortion.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:09 AM

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The real problem with making abortion illegal is that it won't stop a LOT of people from getting abortions. it will just stop them from getting safe abortions from qualified medical doctors. If we want to see thousands of women dying of infections from at-home DIY abortions again, we are going in the right direction.

As I see it the real choice is between "killing fetuses" and "killing women." A lot of people simply won't admit that.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:25 AM

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11:25
Agree 100%


Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:28 AM

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this was in the news before and during the whole banning process. there were senate hearings and lots of coverage, if you really want to pay attention. i knew about this before it passed and wrote about 20 letters of protest to my representatives: local, state, federal, and planned parenthoods. i urged others to do the same. this is the very first time a bill against abortion has been passed with no clause to allow even if the mother's life is endangered. i don't get it. how can it be okay to allow a woman to die in order to preserve a potential life? george bush said that we should not create life in order to destroy it. what about the poultry and beef industries? what about tackling the cause of a problem instead of trying to eradicate the effects of problems? NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND? what if the mother dies in labor due to FORESEEN complications, because she was disallowed by federal law to abort? that baby will certainly be left behind emotionally. we need to abort this administration.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:32 AM

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Anti-abortion activists creep me out. Once I was walking into Planned Parenthood to pick up some birth control pills, and a huge group of them were standing outside, mostly old men, screaming at me "You deserve better", "Don't do it", "Your child is from God, don't kill it", I just wanted to punch them in the face, dumb bastards.

So may people march and protest around Planned Parenthood, not knowing it is the only way for women to get free-cheap healthcare that this country deprives them of. Shame on them.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:33 AM

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11:09 - "75% of abortions are made by teenage women" - not true. It's mostly women in their 20s.
Another interesting stat: "More than 60 percent are had by women who have one or more children."
11:25 - I totally agree with you.

This is a very heated topic. I can understand arguments for either side. When it comes down to it, constitutionally, it is a woman's right to choose what happens to her body and her future. Restricting the timeline of when she is allowed to make that choice is limiting her power and control over her own body. Same with all of these restrictive laws based on 24-hour waiting periods and pre-abortion counseling.
Pay attention to these other laws - these are what are restricting many women from even accessing the option to make a choice.

Link

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:46 AM

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protesting around the clinics is so much more exploitative of unborn children than abortion will ever be. holding up 2' by 3' colored pictures of aborted fetuses really misses the point. should we protest war in front of the national guard offices, holding up pictures of our dead loved ones, bloodied and torn apart? what a stink that would make! what if we protested outside of churches holding up pictures of starving, abused, negelcted, drug-infected babies & children? what if we protested in front of the protesters homes with pictures of a one room apartment, crawling w/ roaches and surrounded by drug dealers & pimps & rapists? would that change anything? no, it would make us look like we cared more about being heard than changing anything. it's a self-righteous way to pretend that you are contributing. if you really wanted to stop abortions, you would be working, in a realistic manner, to reduce unwanted pregnancies effectively. the problem is that many of the protesters know nothing about any other way of life than their own. and they don't accept any other way of life when they hear about it. some people don't sit around pointing fingers at others' behaviour, but instead try to help improve the quality of life for those people. why not spend your afternoons building a park or playground or community center for the teenagers to go to? they need other activities besides sex to entertain themselves. in many neighborhoods, there are no alternatives.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:47 AM

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why don't they make it a federal law that a man cannot ejaculate into a woman without protection???

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:49 AM

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This topic is too emotional for many and I don't think anyone will change anyone's mind about it.

Personally, I put life above women's rights. And yes, I am a woman.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:50 AM

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what about a woman's right to life?

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:52 AM

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I'm pro-choice- make the choice NOT to have sex if you can't deal with the consequences. Otherwise, I fail to see what gives the mother the right to put herself over that of her fetus/unborn child, etc..

In criminal law, you only have the right of self defence in proportion to the force against you. So maybe, if the child birth is an immediate threat to the physical life of the mother, it would be sound legally for abortion. But I don't care if the birth will mean the mother lives in poverty, that she doesn't go to school, etc. There are thousands of families out there who are waiting on a child to adopt. Abortion is at it's core, entirely selfish, and I fail to see why we should value it.





Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:01 PM

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I think this will help Hillary win the presidency. If she can't protect women, nothing will.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:05 PM

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12:01 -
There are plenty of families waiting for children to adopt, and there are millions and millions of children around the world living in orphanages with dire conditions waiting to be adopted. Chona, Romania, Russia, you name it. There doesn't have to be more.

Personally, I am pro-choice. But in some cases, I am pro-abortion. For instance, I think some types of abortions should be allowed even the child is already born, with unlimited amount of time, in rare cases. Take George W. Bush - now there's a sucker just begging to be aborted!

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:09 PM

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are you sure you understand "pro-choice?"

what about the thousands of children who have been taken from their homes due to neglect or abuse, many of whom weren't wanted in the first place but the mother couldn't afford an abortion? what about the abandoned babies or those born with drug-addiction? please. there is not a "shortage" of needy, parentless children for those who wish to provide a supportive and loving environment for them. you don't care about the welfare of a woman who may bring a child into this world? would you care if you knew that her pregnancy is a result of having to prostitute herself for money for food for her other children? babies born to women who cannot afford them are more likely not being monitored regularly throughtout the pregnancy, and so might not ever be adopted. we may not only have to pay (with tax dollars) for the welfare and upbringing of those children in the squalid social systems of local governments, but alos bear the burden of more abandoned babies.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:09 PM

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So are you saying that a child with parents that don't take proper care of them would have been better off aborted??

I'm sorry but I was a child in foster care and turned out just fine, regardless of the bad decisions made by my parents when I was young. I don't understand why a baby should die becuase a mother won't be able to take care of it down the road.

Regardless of rights or poverty or circumstances it's a baby, a growing life that is being taken because a mother doesn't want it. Bottom line

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:35 PM

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I agree, women have the right to control over their bodies. That right comes into play when you decide whether or not to use a condom and take the pill.

If you CHOOSE not to take these precautions, then I'm sorry to tell you, but you're now pregnant of your own accord, and it is your own fault, not the child's. Also, the chances of getting pregnant while using the pill and a condom (both easy and feasable) range very low. VERY low.

So low that if you assumed everyone in the world was female (all 6 kajillion), sexually able to have children, no one miscarried, and the worst case scenarios for the stats were true (no one knew how to put a condom on right, missed pill dosages, etc), then the amount of abortions per year is STILL lower than the amount we have now. Know what that means? People are killing babies, and not just 'cause "the condom broke". People aren't even caring enough to take precautions, because the idea of abortion is much too readily available. I think this law might make people take more precautions.

OP, is abortion illegal for cases of maternal danger beyond the 1st trimester?

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:41 PM

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look, you may have valid, morally sound points, but in the real world, people who have no self-esteem, people who get drunk and have sex, people who are drugged at a party and end up pregnant...none of them consider a condom. they are considering the moments that they can feel loved. some women have unprotected with a fleeing boyfriend in order to try to keep him, or with a stranger because they are engaging in dangerous behaviour. this is common practice especially amongst those with mental &/or emotional difficulties. depressed persons are notoriuous for engaging in dangerous behaviour, putting themselves into situations that, if they were in good mental health and focused, they might recognize as such. look at lindsay lohan, for example. many of you are sounding like it's a bunch of rational, healthy women who just up-and-decide to terminate their pregnancy, and that's just not what's really going on. until we can agree on the nature of the problem, the solution will evade us.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:57 PM

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FYI last poster and all others who say "use birth control or deal with the consequences"-- a close friend of mine called me this week in tears to tell me that she is pregnant. The only problem is she was on orthotricyclen lo, taking it regularly every day, same exact same. When she saw her doctor they told her that "yeah we've noticed a lot of women are getting pregnant while on this pill," which completely shocks me. I am on the same pill and will be switching now for sure, but the failure of a pharmaceutical company to warn us of these failure rates is not HER responsibility, or any woman's responsibility, and should not be used as an argument to keep a child she doesn't want. Birth control is not fail proof, so enough with this talk about responsibility. It's not responsible to bring a child into the world that you are unequipped to provide for emotionally or financially.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 1:02 PM

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12:05 makes an incredibly valid point. This issue has had a make-or-break effect on gubernatorial elections when Reagan turned it to the states to decide. It's not hard to see this election becoming single-issue for women voters whose rights are being annihilated.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 1:13 PM

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So because someone got drunk, or was depressed, or made a bad decision a baby should DIE? I'm not buying it, sorry. And because a pill failed a baby should DIE? It's unfortunate that your friend got pregnant but we all know that when you have sex there is a small chance you could get pregnant right? Even if it's just 1%? I mean that's how babies are made...

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 1:17 PM

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1:13 -
I truly hope so, for women, for our country, and for future generations.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 1:18 PM

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1:13- and even for the men who recognize that the rights of their wives, daughters, girlfriends, friends etc are at stake. I personally am a hard core free market hawk. I support aggressive war and I support aggressive tax cuts. But I am leaning to voting for Hillary (even though I LOVE Rudy) simply because the Christian loonies have overstepped their bounds.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 1:21 PM

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1:17: Stop saying baby. I'm sure when you think of abortion, you think of a cutsie little baby bouncing around and getting demolished by a murderous ax or something. It's not a baby at all, it has no properties of even being human, in fact, the human and fish fetus at a couple weeks look exactly alike.



Thursday, July 26, 2007, 1:22 PM

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referring to a fetus as a baby is like referring to a caterpillar as a butterfly. sure, in time and with the right environment, it MAY become a butterfly. but it is in fact NOT YET a butterfly. is a cow just a steak waiting to happen?
if you're going to talk about potential babies, why aren't you also as concerned with the men who impregnant women? the men supply the sperm. i agree with putting some of the burden on them (equality is a b*tch, eh?).

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 1:45 PM

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This frustrates me so much. Never before have medical procedures been outlawed in the USA. Why is the government getting involved with what should be between a woman, her partner and her doctor??? Bring up the "god makes babies" argument all you want-but not everyone in the US is christian, therefore god should not be involved in the legislative process.

Yes, abortions are a horrible thing. No woman WANTS to have an abortion, but it IS my CHOICE not to have a child!!! Don't tell me not to have sex-that's ridiculous! Sex should not be a punishment. I am in a committed monogamous relationship and we do NOT want children and we use protection every time we have sex, if I get pregnant despite that, I will not feel I deserved it because I have had sex. What century are you people living in? Doctors are not willing to perform sterilizations on women under a certain age-why? Because they are afraid you will change your mind and want children later. So telling women to get themselves "fixed" is insane.

I understand many feel abortion is wrong, but it is just as wrong, if not more wrong to force a woman to carry and give birth to a child that is not wanted. Stop policing our uteruses. There are way more important problems in this world that we should be focusing our attention on. The government should NOT be involved with such a personal and difficult decision.



Thursday, July 26, 2007, 1:47 PM

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to those who oppose abortions: what do you think about women who go to extreme lengths using certain types of fertility treatments in order to conceive? what about when these women find that they are pregnant with 5 or 6 babies? this is okay?

i also find that many abortion foes support the death penalty. like our president.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 1:59 PM

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Abortion safe???

I hope you're joking 11:09

The Mental AND physical pain, heartache and anguish follows women for the rest of their lives. Depression and other side effects always follow those who have had abortions, ask any woman who has suffered through one!

Having a BABY (not a mass, not a group of cells- A BABY) torn from your womb can do that to a woman!!!

These "scars" are far worse than any baby could bring!

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 2:11 PM

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I'm pro-life in all aspects of the term. I am opposed to death being taken from an individual (regardless of being born or not). One plays God when even thinking about ending the life of another. God only has that right, not us his imperfect creations.

Death penalties should be turned into life sentences. Criminals need to "Learn" there is no easy way out. Make them sweat in chain gangs as they did in the past. They need to fear the Justice system not laugh or look forward to their luxurious weight lifting time behind bars. They should be given a miserable existence for the misery they've caused.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 2:23 PM

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ACTUALLY, I THINK YOU ARE GENERALIZING TOO MUCH. I SUFFERED FROM SEVERE bipolar disorder and schizophrenia symptoms for most of my adolescent years and early into my 20's. i drank a lot and did drugs in hopes of easing my mental anguish. i also had unprotected sex with each of my 4 botfriends during those years. (as mentioned above, engaging in dangerous behgaviou. crying out for help. whatever you want to call it, it's not normal. but it's also not uncommon.) i had 4 abortions in 6 years. i suffered only during the times i had to wait for those abortions to be done. if, at 17, i had not had the option to get a sanitary abortion i would probably have killed myself. (and for those who don't care about the health or welfare of a would-be mother, i would have taken the unborn fetus with me in death). if i had not killed myself and had to give birth, only to give up the child, i would have suffered severe mental and emotional anguish over that-not to mention that the receiving parents may not have ever known about their baby's mother's mental problems.) each time i conceived, it was pure hell. i was not in a position to get "fixed" (or break myself) as i could not make a decision about the next minute back then, let alone the rest of my life. i have no regrets or ill feelings or guilt about any of those choices. i thank the stars every day that i lived here in the US back then and suffered no infections and was able to have follow-up visits and not have to hide in shame about any of it. that's another side of the story for you.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 2:28 PM

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if god decides issues of death, is god also responsible for creating life? so, if a woman cannot conceive "normally" and has procedures done to get pregnant, isn't that taking god's work into her hands? you can't have it both ways. a fetus is not a sacred being. it may become a human baby if all goes right, but it may be miscarried or still-born. it may not even develop properly. it is a bunch of cells. just like uncle henry, who is lying in the same bed he's been in for 4 years, afflicted with such severe dimentia and alzheimer's that he cannot breath or swallow on his own. prolonging his "life" would j=have been great if it prolonged his life. but it's just prollonging his death. he is not in that body. it is just a bunch of skin and bones.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 2:36 PM

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If you believe life begins at conception and abortion is murder, then don't have an abortion. Go pray in your church that on an individual basis, we'll believe as you do, but don't turn an OPINION into law. This kind of crap makes me want to emigrate to Sweden (yeah, check out their abortion statistics!).

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 3:02 PM

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To the person that said that abortion is not safe, it is WAY safer than childbirth, in fact about 10 times safer. 1 out of 100,000 women dois from abortion, and 12 out of 100,000 women die from childbirth. Also, same goes with complications.

If I were pregnant and was in the 2nd trimester, and was told that I would die if I kept the pregnancy, I would go to another country to get an abortion. I would not allow myself to die just so my child could live. Rediculous.



Thursday, July 26, 2007, 3:28 PM

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"f you believe life is sacred and killing a person is wrong, then don't do it. Go pray in your church that on an individual basis, we'll believe as you do, but don't turn an OPINION into law."

3:02, your logic is so incredibly flawed, and oblivious to the fact that it is opinion and morality that form the basis of all laws. Legislating morality is a common occurence. It's just that now, we try to re-label it, or alternatively, just throw a fit when there isn't a concensus as to the morality. That however is the result of relativism.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 3:42 PM

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3:42
No, dear poster, YOU are flawed in your logic. I all our other laws, our limitations are set only to the extent that they can affect others. We have laws to prevent our actions from affecting others in a bad way. Since in this case, the action of abortion does not affect any person but the mother (fetus is not a human yet), it can not be governed by law. Trying to control it is morally wrong.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 3:46 PM

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my friend was 4 months pregnant when an ultrasound (or some test, i'm not familiar with the tests they do) indicated something was wrong with the fetus' development. she and her doctors went over every detail of her pregnancy. it turned out that she had been using acutane for her acne, but had never been told that she should not use this product during pregnancy or anytime shortly before becoming pregnant. her baby would have had an extremely hard time in this world, if the fetus even made it that far. she opted to abort the pregnancy due to the startling news. that was 4 years ago. it is not fair to a child to be brought inot a world in which it cannot thrive or with little hope that it will survive. didn't god provide the human race with the ability to diagnose things like this for a reason?

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 3:51 PM

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God allows things to happen, we all have free will. He doesn't take that away from us. He wants us all to go to him freely on our own accord and to live in his love. Not to end any lives he's created- for a purpose. Even if a child is born through scientific means, its life is no greater or less than those of us currently living.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 3:54 PM

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If a baby doesn't come to full term(due to deformities,etc), doesn't survive the birth itself or dies, that is all "natural" causes. Not in the hands of men.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 3:56 PM

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when did the US gov't start meddling so profusely in medical decisions? ever since this administration, that's when it got very heavy-handed. remember terri schiavo and frist's medical evaluation of her? that he made without even seeing her in person or treating her personally?! what a sham! doctors make medical decisions, not politicians. at least that's how it oughta be. if, however, the government wants to start paying for my medical procedures, i would be willing to have to pay out-of-pocket for services such as abortion. but only if it's a majority (democratic) decision, not a religiously-based decision.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 3:56 PM

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any woman that dares to have sex without protection is putting her life in Jeapordy. Regardless if she gets pregnant or not.
I don't know if you've read but 50% of women who have sex for the first time can get HPV! There is no way to protect oneself against that, since they have no test for the MEN who have it and "share it" with the women they BED!

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 3:58 PM

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how do you know god didn't guide my decision to have an abortion? you can't speak for god. maybe the purpose of my pregnancy was to get me to become more outspoken and an advocate for abortion. who are you to tell me what god wants from me?

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:02 PM

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I merely said we have a "free will" and that God allows things to happen, with our without his own will.

I doubt God would want anyone to end a life. If I were you I would thank your Mother for not using that "choice" on you.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:05 PM

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please try to remember a point that has already been made. many women are not thinking rationally or are in a good mind-set to make thoughtful decisions when faced with depression or suffering from a mental disorder. actions are sometimes just relexes or responses to our environment.
whan a person has a heart attack and is on the verge of death, being supported by man-made devices and machines, isn't that going against god's wishes, too?

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:07 PM

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Church and state are supposed to be separate, so why are you all quoting your expertise in what god wants as an argument in favor of this archaic law meant to keep women in "their place"...

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:08 PM

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i was not an accidental pregnancy. i had no health issues when developing. she wanted a baby. you did claim to know what god's intentions are with regard to life, and that is way out of line. maybe the messages that YOU receive from god are interpreted by YOU to mean that, but that doesn't mean that god is saying the same things to other people. you follow your path and i won't support the laws that might inhibit your personal choices with regard to becoming pregnant. and i will listen to my god and follow the path that my god has laid out for me with regard to pregnancy and how to handle it.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:10 PM

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we were made with uteruses, men were made with their "parts". If you don't like that, suck it up. We are made male and female, there's nothing you can do but get it all removed and be asexual. Yeah... that will really show them all!

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:12 PM

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to 405

if you were me, we would agree and wouldn't be having this debate on this topic. if you were me, you'd clearly understand my point of view. if you were me you wouldn't resort to saying a snide thing like that. do you think i harbour some resentment about being born instead of aborted and that's why i support and defend the right to a safe and sanitary abortion? if you were me, you'd think you were wrong.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:14 PM

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Abortion is never safe, sanititary, etc. There are many statistics out there to prove it.

we were all born and given the right to live and breathe, I just think that if a baby comes into exhisitance (conception) it's there for a reason. If it was a "mistake" as you say... That blame should be on the mom AND dad involved and the life created shouldn't be sucked out of the womb and killed because of an error or lack of judgement.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:19 PM

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4:19 -
Umm abortion is never sanitary and safe? Ok....mine was.
HELLO - it is way safer than childbirth and very sanitary when done under supervision of a doctor.


Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:46 PM

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I not just talking about it in the physical sense. A woman lives with that decision for the rest of her life, and it's not usually a joyful memory. I've never heard of a woman joyfully reminiscing about her Abortion experience, quite the opposite.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:59 PM

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Well, I've also heard about this little thing called post-partum depression. Not every birth is joyous.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 5:17 PM

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For those who are saying that these women should just deal with the "consequences" of their actions, give me a break. If you develop lung cancer as a result of smoking, should you be denied treatment and face the "consequences?" Or if you ate too much crap in your life that you now weigh 200+pounds and want gastric bypass, should you be denied treatment and just have to face the "consequences?"
Have empathy and understanding for your fellow women: put yourself in her shoes (single, unwed, too many mouths to feed, no jobs). Having an abortion is not an easy choice to make and it is not made lightly.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 5:59 PM

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Dealing with an extra mouth to feed, lack of sleep, possible post-partum depression, lack of help at home, sagging boobs and feeling tied-down doesn't sound that "joyful" to me at all.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 6:01 PM

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Abortion is not going away. You can make it illegal, but they will still happen. It will just be less safe.

Clearly, no woman in her right mind WANTS to have an abortion. Women don't go out and get pregnant so they can have an abortion.

The real answer is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Comprehensive sex education and access to birth control are key. And by the way, comprehensive sex education includes teaching about abstinence.

Note: Children who are educated about sex, whether it's an abstinence only program or comprehensive, typically delay having sex. But those who have had abstinence only education are more likely to have unsafe or unprotected sex once they do.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 6:09 PM

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Having a root canal isn't eaxtly joyful either. But you do it for your long term health and well-being.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 6:10 PM

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Education, abstinance, God ..........whatever you want to believe in as being the solution, the fact is ......... as a woman it is my body, and I want control over what takes place. If I have an unwanted pregnancy I have the right to decide whether or not I wish to ..
1. Give it up to adoption
2. Go ahead with it
3. Terminate the pregnancy
and if I need more than 3 months to decide the government should not revoke my right to make the decision. The child becomes a child upon birth not conception.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 6:24 PM

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2:28 Pm You are very unuasal for a wonan who had an abortion. most woman suffer greatly after taking awy the life of their unborn child,one of the biggest protesters against abortion is Roe. Their is group called Racheh that helps woman woman ,who grieve their abortions. do you know some of these late term babies who are aborted surive. I worked for Birtright for many years Ifound that it took a strong willed woman to keep her baby Adoption is a another option. It is tough to give birth to uunwanted child but it is tougher on the Mom and society not to mentionthe child to abort or take away the life of a preborn child

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 6:32 PM

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I can't resist the urge to chime in. The fact abortion is such a touchy topic is a GOOD sign. It means that we as a society and as humans care. Pro-life people care about innocent human life being destroyed. They are passionate about every human having the right to live and I think that's great. Pro-choice people care about the disadvantaged young women who do not have the funds, resources and/or support system to carry a pregnancy to term. They are passionate about the rights and needs of women and making sure that women have the right to make choices about their own health and private bodies rather than the government. I think that's great too. I fall on the pro-choice side of the issue, but I think it is so unfortunate that people have to become so angrily divisive about abortion. They should think back to what caused them to have an emotional reaction to it, and that's the human feelings of empathy and compassion. And those are common to both sides of the issue. I'm not saying a middle ground can be found because I doubt there is one. But keeping a humane attitude when it comes to a very sensitive subject will make for a much more productive discourse...whether on a small scale like this board or at the national level.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 7:24 PM

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2:11pm-- I know a number of women, including my sister and sister-in-law who have had abortions and do not regret that difficult decision. Fortunately these women are NOT scarred for the choices they made, albeit it very hard decisions. Everyone does NOT believe the same way you do. Our bodies, our choice.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 7:29 PM

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4:59
Well there is s first for everything huh? I joyfully reminisce about my abortion. Why? Because I was half-way through college, bright, going somewhere, and using protection (the pill) with my long-time boyfriend. If I had been forced to have it, all my future plans and dreams would be gone. I would not have finished school, I would have been an unwed mother. Abortion was a sigh of relief for me.

By the way, not painful, not horriffic, not depressed, and I don't have the "side effects" that all of you are talking about. Neither do the many women I know who have had abortions.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 7:34 PM

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Funny how the same people who are against abortion are also against sex education in schools. I will say that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The jesus freaks are going to get Hillary elected President. Not what I want necessarily, but the punishment fits the crime.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 8:08 PM

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"we were all born and given the right to live and breathe, I just think that if a baby comes into exhisitance (conception) it's there for a reason. If it was a "mistake" as you say... That blame should be on the mom AND dad involved and the life created shouldn't be sucked out of the womb and killed because of an error or lack of judgement.

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:19 PM"

FYI . . . .not all unwanted pregnancies are due to an "error or lack of judgment" of the parties involved! My sister got pregnant while on depo-provera and chose to keep the baby even though doctors warned her the baby may have complications from the drug. He ended up dying of a heart tumor at 3 months old. Not saying she would have been better off having had an abortion, my nephew was a wonderful presence while he was here, but how dare you assume that people who seek abortions are always people who live recklessly and irresponsibly!

The rest of us who take full care not to get pregnant should not be punished in case we do, because of a few people who don't protect themselves. It is a personal decision!! PERSONAL!!!


Thursday, July 26, 2007, 11:57 PM

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According to the National Institute of Health, nearly 15% of women who know they are pregnant will have a miscarriage. Many women experience miscarriages before they even know they're pregnant. Doesn't it seem like God is pro-abortion?

Friday, July 27, 2007, 12:41 AM

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Hilary Clinton officially has my vote. Guiliani is against choice.

Friday, July 27, 2007, 10:03 AM

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10:03- seems like that is what 08 is going to boil down to. It is the big issue, just like terrorism was in the last one.

Friday, July 27, 2007, 10:09 AM

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How sad is that

The decision to choose one candidate over another, is based on whether I will have my rights to choose revoked or not. Terrorism was at least a valid concern, because it was an outside threat (although Bush really f*****d it up), but pro-choice, come on. How about taking care of the issue of poverty, and focusing on the children that are born into families that can't care for them properly, and quit worrying about the "unborn".

Friday, July 27, 2007, 10:15 AM

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10:15, you're not a woman, are you.

Friday, July 27, 2007, 10:19 AM

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Actually yes I am, and I have had two abortions, so I am very much Pro Choice.

Friday, July 27, 2007, 10:26 AM

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What if the baby has a serious birth defect? Most of those test can not be done until the second trimester. I hope this law will have an exception when it comes to this.

Some people will regret their decion to have an abortion, but some people will not. That is why it is a CHOICE!!! Don't take away choice from others just because you won't do it.



Friday, July 27, 2007, 10:42 AM

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'what if the baby has a serious birth defect'? Hello... most of these tests that are done show a POSSIBILITY of there being a defect, which most of the time cannot be confirmed until birth. If you were trying to have a baby, would you abort a potentially healthy baby? That is a whole other argument in itself...

Friday, July 27, 2007, 10:56 AM

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Yes it is, 10:56. You are absolutely right, but that is true where the birth disorders don't run in the family.

Friday, July 27, 2007, 11:07 AM

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10:15 am poster-

I don't think it is sad at all that so many of us will vote according to personal choice concerning our reproductive freedoms! Trying to go back in time and reverse a right we have is only the tip of the ice berg! The current administration and political climate is representative of a general agenda where republicans will continue to try to take rights away from us! Thanks to Bush they can now tap our phones or read your email! What next? Stay the hell away from my uterus!

Yes-terrorism is an important issue, but I don't think any of these dingbats have what it takes to solve the problem-no one does! These are battles that have been going on for centuries. We invade Iraq to give them freedom while we try to take away freedoms from Americans. Yeah, okay.

I'm also going to vote according to how a candidate feels on gay marriage rights too. That's a human rights issue, not a church issue.

Friday, July 27, 2007, 12:59 PM

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Ok You Have All Misinterpreted

I am the 10:15 poster, and YES I AM PRO-CHOICE! YES I HAVE HAD 2 ABORTIONS !What I am saying is that it is wrong that the government will have a say in what I do with my body, first trimester, second trimester or even third. It is my body and no government should EVER have jurisdiction over what I choose to do with it.
What I am saying is sad, is that this has become a topic on the political dartboard, and it shouldn't be, neither should gay rights or any other type of personal infringement. The government should only be paying attention to the threats at large, like terrorism, poverty, not telling people how to live their lives according to what they dictate as the status quo.
So NO I am not saying that they are not important, but leave alone the rights on the individual and focus on other issues.
Now all of you that turned my comment into a whipping post get over yourselves.

Friday, July 27, 2007, 2:01 PM

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I agree with 2:01. Having personally recieved an abortion in a very nice and well-run clinic (Planned Parenthood all the way!), I can attest to the fact that it does not damage people's lives. For me (I used the abortion pill), it was simple, clean, and like a long period.

In fact, most of the girls sitting in there with me were under 18. I'm glad Planned Parenthood is there.

Friday, July 27, 2007, 2:18 PM

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Sorry 10:15!-your post sounded as though the sadness you were refering to was in the voting public's concerns, not in our screwed up government!! (-form 12:59 poster). I agree wholeheartedly-these things shouldn't even be an issue!!

Saturday, July 28, 2007, 2:50 AM

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closed minds abort alternative viewpoints.

Monday, July 30, 2007, 5:45 PM

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WHAT ?!?

Monday, July 30, 2007, 5:57 PM

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I am so glad that this law was passed. Don't have sex if you can not deal with the consequences. Pro-life.

Monday, July 30, 2007, 6:29 PM

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Right. Tell that to my husband. We young married folk who are on regular birth control, do not want children but are too young to get "spayed" (haha) are subject to the same 97% effective rule that everybody else has to deal with when it comes to taking the pill. Doctors don't want to perform vasectomies or tubal ligations on young people. My husband and I have discussed this. I watch my menstrual timeframes closely. If I ever get pregnant, I will abort. That is my CHOICE. (and thank god I still have it!)

Monday, July 30, 2007, 7:06 PM

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having my abortion was the saving grace in my life. god put me in the time and place i was in so that i could choose to have a safe and clean and private abortion. god allowed me to look into my future and my past and god allowed me to decide that an abortion was my best option. thank god for all of that! and now, god has allowed me to share the comfort i found in having a choice, in making my own decision about my own body.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 8:02 AM

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why would someone comment that there are never safe and sanitary abortions?! that's seriously just plain ignorant. if you want to disagree with the choice of abortion, it would be better for your cause if you at least appeared to be educated about the topic.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 10:05 AM

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If you aren't ready to get pregnant. Don't have sex. Pregnancy is one of the outcomes and its a big chance. I think if you are mature enough to have sex and take the risk you should be mature enough to be a parent.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion so please let me share mine without one of you slamming me. I am not doing that to you.

I just think its wrong. Its murder in my eyes and God doesn't approve. As soon as that baby is conceived is a person.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." -Jeremiah 1:5

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 10:40 AM

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some of you really have nerve!! YOU are going to interpret and explain what god wants for ME?? well, god and i are pretty close and i have it on good authority that god is fine with my decisions. are any of you who are against abortions doing anything to help parents who accidentally became pregnant and cannot afford to raise their child(ren)? do you help distribute birth control to those who cannot afford it? do you educate within your communities? have you ever been to an orphanage and looked into the eyes of an abandoned child-abandoned becaues his/her mother could not afford an abortion or a child? or do you just preach on a website about how you know what god doesn't approve of? and the bible quotes may as well be passages from a fairy tale.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 11:10 AM

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A fairy tale? I hate that you are so confused and mistaken.

And I don't think I was explaining it to YOU personally. You sure do have some conceit issues.

I SAID I was sharing my opinion. I knew someone would react that way. Sad.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 11:30 AM

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you can open up with any sentence or sentiment you like, but you are not just sharing an opinion, you are joining a debate. the notion that your whole idea of god and what god does and doesn't approve of comes from some book that was pieced together over centuries and by hundreds of people is sad. you can't throw words like that out and expect no response. and FYI, i am only sharing my opinion.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 11:41 AM

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thats fine. share your opinion. we will see who is right.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 11:47 AM

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uh, gee. i'm so glad i have permission to share my opinion. you may live your life in hopes of waiting until it's over to find out what god is all about, but god and i have a daily get together and god lives through me. when i die, it doesn't really matter if i believe in god, because i'll be dead. my soul will join the rest of the cosmic energy already out there, where it was before it was in my body.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 12:00 PM

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What the hell does some mythical god have to do with abortion laws in a country where church and state are supposedly separate.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 12:22 PM

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as long as our money is imprinted with "in god we trust", you can bet that there's more than just a $piritual interest for the church to get involved.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 12:25 PM

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To the poster who compared ppd to the regret (or depression) that comes after having an abortion...
ppd is caused by a hormonal change after having a baby, not just being sad or whatever. I have no idea if there is a hormonal change after an abortion but I would think it is not as significant.

To the poster who said babies are just another mouth to feed, and listed all of the negative effects on our bodies, there are many, many positives that outweigh all of that. Your comment was offensive and immature.
My husband and I are married and we had a surprise baby. I considered abortion but realized we were just being selfish and we are happy with our decision.

I'm pro-choice, but there is never a simple answer to this issue. It's a sad topic from either side. I am surprised at how many women sound proud that they had abortions. That's just how it comes across.
How many have had abortions, then had a baby later on? How did you feel about your previous abortion?

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 12:58 PM

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Abortion is murder, what else needs to be said?

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 1:26 PM

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How come its legal to have an abortion and kill a fetus,

BUT if someone murders a woman that is pregnant they could be charged with first degree murder for the woman AND the fetus?

America's legal system is messed up.

could someone explain that to me?

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 1:52 PM

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why is the death penalty legal? because sometimes its in the collective mass' best interests. i had an abortion. and i am not proud, but i am closer to being proud than i am to being ashamed. it's a medical procedure, not sanctioned murder. but, i may have killed someone if i had to bear a child. and then i could get the death penalty. full circle.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 2:23 PM

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the death penalty is legal because some people are just so horrible and cruel they don't deserve much more. you reap what you sow.

i think punishment should be to receive what you did wrong.

you rape someone, you get raped
beat someone, you get beat
kill someone, you get killed

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 2:29 PM

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1:52, I believe that varies by state - where I'm from, the fetus isn't considered a life and only the mother's death is prosecuted. Since it's up to each state to rule on the legality of abortion as well, it actually makes sense.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 2:34 PM

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You may not approve of abortion but that is what is SO wonderful about our country, you can make CHOICES for yourself.
Even if you do use forma od contraceptives there is STILL that miniscule chance you will get pregnant.
If you don't believe in abortion, by all means don't have one, but as women we should have the choice. The government should certainly not dictate what i should or should not do with my body.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 2:38 PM

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there is no equivalent of this law in any way that affects men. men's bodies are their own.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 2:47 PM

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Yeah...that's why we have a law or two that affects their wallets.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 2:52 PM

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i personally believe being able to have a baby is a blessing. creating that new life and have it grow inside of you is such a miracle. there are so many women out there that want children that can't have any. my aunt adopted because she couldn't have one. then there are women that get pregnant and have it terminated.

i can understand there are circumstances that an abortion is necessary. such as the mother's life being endangered by the pregnancy or even rape. but just because you don't want it is another.

i am happy to be a woman and am glad i am not a man. i would never compare myself. yes men's bodies are their own, but they don't get to experience the joy of having a baby. i think we get the better end of the deal.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 2:53 PM

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i, too, am glad that i'm not a man. however, i wish i had the same freedom of choice with respect to my body.

as far as some women can't conceive and others terminate, well, that's normal in many circumstances. for example, my boss spends $2,500. a month on a leased car. without batting an eye. i, on the other hand scrimp and save every penny to affors my $331. car payment.
one woman i work with has curly hair and is forever straightening it. another uses a curling iron every day to keep it from being straight.
one person's trash is another persons treasure.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 3:26 PM

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Having a baby is a blessing-it is a beautiful thing if you are ready, willing and wanting a child. However, I still want the choice to choose if I want a child or not. I don't want the government telling me what a blessing is. Just because there are women out there who cannot have children is no reason why I should feel guilty for not wanting one. There are children all over the world who are waiting to be adopted.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 3:32 PM

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3:26 your last statement is so very true in so many ways.

it relates to every part of every day life.

i will never understand the hair thing. i would be excited to have curly hair. well mostly because where i live is way humid. my straight hair looks like a frizz ball on most days :P

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 3:32 PM

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Who Do You Think You Are

How dare any of you preach to us about unsanitary conditions for a abortion, or argue the rights of the fetus calling it murder, when you know NOTHING about which you speak. Abortion is not simply acceptable in cases of rape or endangerment, it is acceptable based on what a woman wants to do with her body.
HOW DARE YOU SAY WE WILL SEE WHO IS RIGHT?
I CHOSE to have an abortion because my life was just starting, going to University, great career ops, and yes I was with a loving boyfriend who would have supported whatever decision I made. And I decided to terminate it because my life would have been completly screwed up by having a child. Call it selfish - I don't care, it is less selfish than people who feel that they need to procreate because that is what their god (ha - whatever), or society tells them, and then resent your kids.
To believe abstinance is the key is pathetic. At least those of us who exercise our RIGHT to have an abortion deal with the consequences head on, in a manner that is best for everyone including the child. Why bring a child into a household that woud not be able to care for it, or make it the first priority. To keep it would be selfish.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 3:56 PM

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someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed. rawrrrr

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 4:04 PM

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nahh not really, this is just one topic that I am very passionate about. Well actually anything that has to do with the rights of the individual vs state.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 4:17 PM

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To those that are pro-choice: you say you don't want the government to tell you what to do with your body. How does that differ from the liberals wanting to spend our money for us? Should they be deciding where all that money we pay out of every check goes??
I don't want the government to tell me what to do with ANY part of my life. So if you are pro-choice you are more than likely democrat and supporting a government that would like to take all our money and spend it for us...
Holes in the argument...

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 6:22 PM

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Holes in your non-sequitor ASSumptions. Try again.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 7:26 PM

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I honestly wish that people who are actively anti-abortion...like ANYONE is pro-abortion...would stop protesting outside of clinics & sharing/forcing their own moral belief system (because that is all that it is!) & maybe get busy adopting all of the children that need loving & supportive homes. I'm sure that some pro-life people do this but I certainly do not know any of them. How easy it is to shame others for their choices, much easier than taking on the responsibility for our beliefs.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 7:56 PM

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actually, if no one's noticed, drugs are illegal. That's pretty much the gov't telling us what we can do with our bodies.

And I have to ask- is abortion really something that should be paid for or subsidized by health care or insurance?? I'm Cdn and I certainly don't want my hard earned dollars paying for an abortion...

The gov't restricts what is sellable for consumption all the time. Some health things you have to pay for- abortion should be one of them.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 9:32 PM

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No one's asking you to pay for their abortion-but we are asking that you don't try to play god with our bodies!

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 11:53 PM

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under certain circumstances?

what an interesting post. im a social worker and i believe what i have seen has molded me into being pro choice. but that is another story. what is interesting is someone said up at the top abortion should only be used for rape cases, incest cases, severe deformities,etc. Well who is going to make that call? Women have a hard time proving they've been raped as is, how the hell do you expect people to prove these things? THere are situations where many believe an abortion is ok, but we can't be there to prove it when a woman has been raped by her father. that is why it has to be all or none. let a woman choose if she wants an abortion within the first trimester. it's her right (for now) and she has to live with it, not you.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 11:54 PM

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well said 11:54!

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 1:37 AM

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we have to "pay" for people to get insurance-covered gastric bypass surgeries from eating out-of-control, lung / heart transplants for people who smoke too much or don't exercise, the care of drug-addicted new borns...our tax / insurance premiums dollars already support many "choices" that i personally don't want to fund. but that is life in a democratic society. we give and take. you don't want liberals deciding how to spend your money? well, don't impede on my right to choose an abortion because of that! get out there, support the candidates you think are best for your own interests and convince other voters to do the same. i don't want my taxes spent to fund a war that i don't support. should i argue that the defense department ought to be abolished? no, i should instead become more active in the entire political process and try to have an effective impact.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 8:00 AM

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perfect example for when abortion should take place.

Link

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 8:45 AM

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by the way, that's an article from comcat.net that i linked to above, not anything gruesome or inappropriate.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 8:47 AM

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with regard to the law mentioned earlier in the thread where a person may be charged with 2 counts of murder if they kill a pregnant woman and her fetus dies too, the fetus has to be considered "viable" outside of the womb to be considered a second victim. if the fetus would not be able to survive on its own outside of the womb, it is not a child, but a fetus (a potential child), and thus, not a second victim.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 10:28 AM

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i think a fetus IS a child. that "potential child" didn't get a choice that it was conceived.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 10:36 AM

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no, it didn't get a choice, but mistakes happen.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 10:39 AM

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can you claim a fetus on your tax return as a "dependent"? no, because it is not a child.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 10:58 AM

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9:32
1. ABORTION IN NOT COVERED BY INSURANCE.

2. DRUGS ARE ILLEGAL NOT BECAUSE THEY HARM THE DRUG USER, BUT BECAUSE THE DRUG USER CAN HARM OTHERS WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE.

3. GOVERNMENT CAN NOT TELL US WHAT TO DO WITH OUR BODIES. IT IS AGAINST ALL LAW AND MORALITY.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 1:13 PM

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1:13

Abortion is covered my the medical system in Canda. You don't have to pay anything.

and ditto on your other 2 points

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 1:27 PM

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my aetna insurance covered my abortion. and it was termed "pregnancy termination". paid for 100% of it. i did not expect that, but welcomed the reimbursement check!

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 1:40 PM

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9:32- if it was just because someone could harm someone while under the influence, then you'd be allowed to do drugs in the quiet of your own home alone. That's not the case. It's under most cities "vice" divisions- meaning moral divisions. Same with prostitution- that should be legal everywhere.

Unless you can point out some law that says Gov't can't legislate what we can do with our bodies, then they are the gov't, they can do what they want. Especially in Cda, there is NO basis for your argument. And its ridiculous to try and base abortion on morality- there is no universal moral code. Those against abortion say it's immoral.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 2:34 PM

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My boyfriend forward me this youtube video that is very relevant to the discussion with this comment, which i agree with: "
The ambiguity in their responses (on the one hand that it be illegal,
but that there be no punishment) seems to suggest some deeper rift in
their system of beliefs that I find interesting."

I'd like to pose the same question to those in this conversation who are pro-life and would like to see abortion made illegal. If it's illegal, have you actually thought about what punishment you want to dole out to the unfortunate woman doesn't agree with you?

The ambiguity in their responses (on the one hand that it be illegal,
but that there be no punishment) seems to suggest some deeper rift in
their system of beliefs that I find interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T95avZoqlhE

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 5:26 PM

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What ever happened to consequences? We all have weak moments, we all have moments of anger and say stupid things, we all have moments of emotional termoil in our lives. There are people that do stupid things in the heat of the moment, and not just when it comes to sex. Violent acts, etc. Should they not have to pay the consequesnces either because they were feeling unloved at the moment? Or because they had a horrible upbringing? Or were poor? Yes there are many who have less than perfect situations when a pregnancy occurs, terrible situations for some, but why should the baby die becuase of it? Life isn't perfect, and part of life is learning to live with the consequences, even if it might be the hardest thing that person has ever done. This is a big problem in our country, and a big reason why there are so many problems with the youth. They need to learn to live with their mistakes and make the best of it.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 6:35 PM

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I wouldn't want to be the one to tell an orphaned child that he should have been aborted because he's such a drain on the system and he has a hard life.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 6:39 PM

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It is not a baby. It is a fetus with the possibility to BECOME a person. A fetus cannot survive outside of a woman's body during the first trimester. It is a part of the woman's body & is in no way an independent or separate person.

Why can't we focus on taking wonderful care of the fetus's that DO grow up to become children, teenagers, adults & senior citizens? There is so much work to be done in this world...why not take care of the people that are able to be carried to full term & need more love from this world?

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 7:13 PM

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7:13

I think we are all aware that the 'fetus' can not survive outside of the mother's womb during the first semester. And it certainly can't survive when you purposly kill it either. At 10 weeks with my first child, I remember seeing the heartbeat, watching it kick all over and make its own independent movements, so, yes she was independent to a point. A newborn is also independent to a very small point, and would also die without a caregiver. The point you are trying to make ridiculous! How can they grow up to be teenagers and responsible adults if they have been killed in the womb? Also, how can our teenagers grow up to be responsible adults if they are not taught to take responsiblity for their own actions? Sometimes life is hard, and the consequences are hard, but we can learn from it, and our teenagers can develop some character instead of just passing the buck and killing a potential life. I have 5 teenage daughters, and if one happens to end up pregnant, she will have to face it, and either deal with the baby herself, or adopt the baby out. Both are hard decisions, and hopefully I have taught them that having sex isn't a need like going to the bathroom, and they can do without it until they are in a good relationship that is solid, and they can support the child with a mom and dad. Our lives don't have to be as dramatic as Hollywood's!

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 7:32 PM

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"sex isn't a need like going to the bathroom, and they can do without it"

AMEN!!! When will people realize that sex is not a God given right??



Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 7:44 PM

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It's not?
Your poor husband.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 7:52 PM

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I am talking about hormonal teenagers...duh...not a married woman like myself. My husband is very happy...and gets all the attention he wants, not that it is any of your business. Perhaps you can't read between the lines. When you are in a good solid relationship-like a good marriage for example-sex is great and wonderful, and have all the fun you want, but when you are a teenager, or single, don't have any money to support a child, living on the streets etc., show some self control! You don't have to have sex like a rabbit, you can control yourself! It has been done and is being done by millions of responsible people. We all make choices in life, and if you can't make a responsible one, say you get drunk, get laid and end up pregnant for example, then why should an innonent life die because you screwed up? Show some character...lets teach our kids to be responsible for their own decisions.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 8:15 PM

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maybe you didn't read the whole sentance...

Here it is again, so that you can for sure understand it...

"hopefully I have taught them that having sex isn't a need like going to the bathroom, and they can do without it until they are in a good relationship that is solid, and they can support the child with a mom and dad. Our lives don't have to be as dramatic as Hollywood's"

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 8:18 PM

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This is 7:13

Hi there 7:32. I appreciate you thoughts & am glad you shared. I can't even believe that I started reading this thread & added a comment. This is such a meaningful & big ethical question that I never should have throw out a spur of the moment idea. I elected to take a philosophy course in college & we spent months debating the concept of abortion. We used all kinds of theoretical diagrams, examples & essays to work from & stimulate real & concrete arguments. Honestly, the course ended & we were no more resolved on the ethics of the situation. It really seems to come down to what a individual feels deeply & intuitively within herself.
I hope that this doesn't further complicate things. I am sure that many will cry hypocrite, but I am a vegan...because I believe, deep down in my soul that the way we consume animals is murderous. Yet, I do not, in my heart of hearts, intuitively know that abortion is murder. I don't eat meat because I do not believe in it, yet I will never judge someone because she loves her chicken fried. I just have to know within myself that she sees the world differently than I do.
Abortion is what we call a "slippery slope" argument, meaning it is hard to find where we draw a line. Is a fetus or child a fetus or child right when the sperm gets to the egg? Sperm is capable of producing a child, our eggs are capable of producing a child. A pregnancy test generally cannot detect a positive reading until many days after "conception", so do we have a baby, a potential baby, a collection of cells...when do we consider the cells a fetus or a child?
Seriously, the whole debate could go on forever. Ideas that seem stupid aren't necessarily because we really do not have the answers. That brings me to my stance of being pro-choice because I do not have the ability to decide for you what is right. We have freedom of religion in our country, thank God, so I don't believe that someone can make this ethical call for someone else. I trust my sisters' choice for herself, because when it comes down to it, we need to do what we intuitively feel is right.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 8:29 PM

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hey 7:13, yes I agree this is a difficult question to talk about and debate in such a forum. I am sorry you do not know in your heart of hearts that killing a fetus at any stage isn't murder. It does make me wonder when you put an animal above a human life. You know that eating an animal is murder, but you don't know that killing a child in the womb is murder is a little scary to me. The fact is, we don't know when life truly starts, and anyone that says they do is only expressing their opinion. That is why we should never mess with a fetus, and take their lives into our own and kill it at any stage. I hope you can some day come to know this. I personally think eating meat in moderation is fine, but I respect your decision to be a vegan, and not eat animal meat. However, human life is so much more than an animal, and I do not understand people that change that priority. Thanks for your opinion. I agree we are all entitled to our own opinions, but I will defend an innocent life to the best of my ability, and it truly saddens me to know how many are killed each year out of convenience and selfeshness.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 9:12 PM

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I respect & understand your rational. Thanks for sharing. It is wonderful that the two of us have been able to have a mostly pleasant & meaningful exchange.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007, 10:04 PM

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a fetus is a fetus, not a child. you can't claim a fetus on your tax return, right? you can't buy life insurance for your fetus, right? don't feel bad or sorry for people who have different beliefs than you, it's extremely belittling.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 8:50 AM

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Well we can tell who the bible thumpers are.

Just so i can rain on your parade, the desire to have sex is very natural emotion, and physiological part of being human (to respond it is not their "god given right". There is a reason why girls get their peiod as early at 11 / 12 years old, because is the evolution of life, most pregnancies ended in miscarriage, and to maximize on the child bearing years, a woman' body has evolved to be able start young, god has nothing to do with it, it is called instinct.
As for being accountable I think that women who have abortions are being MUCH more responsible than those that bring an unwanted child into this world, and yes they do become dependent on the system if they are born into poverty, or an abusive household.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 9:27 AM

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What about the responsibility that we have to our enivronment & our resources...anybody heard of overpopulation?!

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 9:34 AM

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Exactly 9:34

There is hardly enough resources to take care of the population we have.



Thursday, August 02, 2007, 9:36 AM

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Nature's Checks and Balances

With increased medical science, and advancement, people are living longer (with the exception of the present generation aged 3 - 8 due to increased obesity), premature babies are surviving where 10 years ago the death rate was higher. It is easier to diagnose helath conditions in newborns and manage the condition through surgery or medication.
Abortion is becoming the new check and balance in ensuring the world slows in population growth

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 9:41 AM

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abortion

abortion doesnt make sence if some one hurts you do you go out and kill someone that has no control over it? no excuse for abortion it is legal killing and it needs to stop

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 10:44 AM

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"However, human life is so much more than an animal, and I do not understand people that change that priority"

Human is just another animal. It means more to us because that is our own kind, but in the eyes of nature, we are all just animals.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 10:53 AM

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9:27

Who do you think GAVE you those emotions and needs? Who do you think created women to bear children? God did. Everything was created to be perfect but because of sin life became difficult. And sex was a gift. It is a way for humans to procreate and God let it be enjoyable.

I don't believe we evolved from some blob somewhere floating in space. Look around you. Some things in this world are way too pefect.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 10:58 AM

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10:58 that is also what they said when they didn't believe that Eart is revolving around Sun. Look around, people would fall out the Earth if that were true. I really wish some people would.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 11:05 AM

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well, the theory of some ethereal being is not nearly perfect enough for me to believe. we evolved from single celled life forms. think about this: one butterfly says to another, "did you know that we used to be caterpillars?" and the second one says, "what?! you're crazy! look at those things, hairy and creepy-crawly. i know i did not come from something like that." and yet, we all know that butterflies do indeed evolve/come from caterpillars. the notion of a god, and the same god at that, who created all of us is plain silly to me.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 11:16 AM

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when did the topic change to God vs. No God. I really think there are enough points to be made without stepping into that boundary and hurting people's baliefs unnecessarily.

I believe in God wholeheartedly. Yet, I am veery much pro-choice. Let's avoid trying to push our personal religious beliefs - or lack thereof - on others. It's pointless.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 11:21 AM

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many people live their lives according to their interpretation of what their god expects. many people believe that, in their god's eyes, abortion is wrong. their belief in their god fuels their disapproval of abortion. others believe that their god does not disapprove of abortion. that's why the topics are co-existing with regard to the discussion.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 11:30 AM

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some people just cannot carry on a meaningful discussion / debate without throwing in their religious views. if we could keep out the matter of belief in gosd, we could probably get somewhere. for some, though, there is just no separating themselves from their religious views.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 11:32 AM

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11:30

true, true, but the post before me really had nothing to do with abortion.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 11:32 AM

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for some people (like me) God any my "religious views" are an everyday part of my life. And it does have a lot to do with my beliefs in a LOT of different issues. Not just this one.

I am not trying to "force it down your throat" as you say. Just expressing how I feel like everyone else. I think its only fair. You can express how you feel about abortion being ok, but I don't say you are shoving it down my throat, because you can't force me to agree with or believe in anything you say.

I just wanted to share my feelings the same as everyone else. I think thats only fair. Don't you?

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 11:47 AM

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11:16

Do you REALLY want to compare yourself to a caterpillar?

You are the one that is silly.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 11:48 AM

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actaully, i was comparing all of us to butterflies. it's called an "analogy". this way of demonstrating a point can be very effective in getting across points that might not otherwise be clearly explained.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 12:04 PM

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1148:

have you even considered the message in the butterfly analogy or are you just outright knocking it because....why?

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 12:06 PM

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Its not even comparable. Yes a caterpillar changes into a butterfly, but its not "evolution". Totally different.

If you want to believe we evolved from single celled life forms that is fine. But I don't. I just don't think the butterful is an equal argument.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 12:16 PM

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hey, 1148

let's not get snippy and call each other names. i didn't call you silly. i opined that a particular idea is silly. i think your point would be better made if you called my analogy silly, rather than labelling me as such.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 12:22 PM

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haha. wow. who is getting snippy? ridiculous. again why i am starting to hate this site.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 12:26 PM

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why are you wo-manning this thread? (yes, i know i just made up a word) why do you feel the need to call people & ideas ridiculous, silly or scary? go protest outside of woman's clinic or something.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 12:30 PM

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let's abort this thread before it enters the 2nd trimester...

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 12:39 PM

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let's abort all the people who are anti-abortion. that will show them. heehee.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 12:42 PM

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puh-lease

anyone here need a midol?

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 12:43 PM

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9:27

So you are saying that if a person believes they should not end the life of an innocent 'fetus', then they must be a bible thumper? Is believing in the bible a bad thing then? Or should we all ask you what to believe in instead? Maybe you should write your own book or something, and we will all share your opinion. So people that are poor should not be able to have children? They should kill them because they are not as well off as you? I had 3 children when we were going through college, and were very poor at the time. Now we have careers, and money, and I am so thankful I didn't choose to kill them because it wasn't a convenient time. People did help us out through that period, and we did rely to a point on the system, but believe me, we are paying our share of taxes, and helping others that are in a similar position now too. What comes around, goes around. But we should never end a life, just help the people we see that need help.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 12:52 PM

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9:27 here

The bible thumper comment is rooted in the whole god gave the precious gift of a child and shouldn't be killed - crap.
Evolution is not just a theory, it is fact. Yes we crawled out of the primordial ooze and learned to walk upright, yes we branched off from apes and learned to walk upright and use tools. All I know is that you will be in for a rude awakening (so to speak) when you die an dwell there is nothing just you in a box.

And if you want to play the "almighty" card then, if abortion is cruel, then why did your god create it, of and lets throw in drugs, murder, incest, and anything that is immoral and illegal.

And finally, I place a higher priority on my pets then 80% of the population.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 1:13 PM

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12:52 -I never had an abortion, if I get pregnant by chance I will keep the baby, but nevertheless I am pro-choice.

You know why?

Because people's lives are different and complex and one number doesn't suit all. I am not the one to judge. What I found many people don't understand is that abortion is as old as human race, you make abortion illegal and you will be killing women, because they will be in someone's basement, trying to have an illiegal procedure. Another point, if you really want to elimnate abortion, making it illegal is not going to do it, but rather improving society on the whole.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 1:17 PM

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1:13

Evolution is not a fact. They can't "prove" any of it. Its a "theory". Hence called THEORY of evolution.

I think humans have evolved to become better at everything. I said HUMANS. We were humans to begin with. I for one don't want to think that I evolved from some nasty monkey that sticks its finger in its butt. Yes animals are smart, but they were not given the mentality and logical reasoning as humans.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 1:28 PM

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1:28 Your argument means that humans are better than anything else. That line of thinking will take us to destruction of this planet.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 1:34 PM

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Aren't we better than everything else? In the sense that Humans are the only logical thinking beings here. And yes they probably will be the destruction of this planet. Someone always wants to do something bigger and better and one group of people always want to destroy another.

You think that a dog is equal to you? No... you are its master. What about trees? They give us oxygen but man cuts them down to make paper... toilet paper you wipe your hiney with.

I think there are things more powerful than us. Such as the weather and natural disasters. Also sharks... they are pretty badass. BUT not smarter and more logical.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 1:40 PM

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I hate when people say that God gave us sex for procreation between a man and his wife. If that was the only reason for having sex, are you telling me that married couples ONLY have sex when they are trying to get pregnant?? Please!

There is a reason sex feels good and it's not just to make babies. It creates a bond between two people, reduces stress levels, lowers blood pressure and increases happiness. Some say it increases the length of your life. Those of us who don't want children are expected to go without? I don't think so.

I always practice safe sex with my partner but if I get pregnant despite being careful, it is my business what I choose to do, not yours and not George Bush's.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:12 PM

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this has become a bunch of self-righteous, superiority-complex ridden comments. ignorance is a dead-end path.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:28 PM

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I do believe that the soul of a dog is in every way equal to the value of my soul. Humans are so arrogant to assume we know or can understand fully.

Evolution is proven. It is not a theory. Take some Physical & Social Anthropology courses. I don't believe that religion & evolution can't go hand in hand...then again, I do not read the Bible literally.

What if, take a little spiritual journey with me here, we are meant to make the choices that we make? Let's say that I am meant to have a child, won't I have that child when that soul is ready & I am ready. I believe that if I did have an abortion, God would help lead me to that decision if that was the journey that I was supposed to take. Eventually, when the stars line up & the soul is ready to come into this physical earth, I will be ready to have that child.


Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:30 PM

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I have not read all the comments written but as I woman who has had an abortion I wish it was illegal all together. One thing that women are not told is the emotional trauma having an abortion will leave with you. I had mine over 20 years ago and not a day goes by that I do not think about it and wish I had never done it. I pray for all the women out there that are thinking of doing it. I would highly recommend adoption instead.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:33 PM

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So you say it is not fact

Well then, what do you call skeletal evidence in Africa for australepithicus aferensis and africansus, or cro-magnon remains in Europe. Radioisotope dating (yes that is real science) estimate 2, 600 000 years old.They were certainly not apes nor were they yet homo erectus.
If you can't understand I will dumb it down for you.



Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:36 PM

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Yeah, like there's no emotional trauma involved in being forced into motherhood.
Make a real argument.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:36 PM

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and i, also as a woman who has had an abortion, am eternally thankful and regret nothing. therein lies the problem. we all may have completely different memories or emotions associated with an abortion. i would never tell you, as someone wh regrets her decision, that you are too sensitive or have emotional problems. and i would not appreciate hearing someone tell me that i am cold-hearted or emotionless because i am happy about my decision.
by the way, murder, drugs, rape, incest all existed in jesus' time and are present in the bible.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:40 PM

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I too am happy with my decision. I would have resented and even hated the child

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:42 PM

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See, we are all very different. I have had an abortion as well. The most tramatic part of all of it is truly the stigma that is attached, the guilt that others try to place & how, it truly seems sometimes, that women in our country are not respected enough to make a decision that is best for herself & her family. I went through years of being very self destructive because I decided to wait to give birth. I know now, as a more independent & healthy woman, that I made a good choice, not the best choice (if I could go back in time, I never would've become preg.) God & I are very close & I know that when we are ready, I am going to be a wonderful mother to the children that I have & the 2 that I plan to adopt. I do not have regrets. I pray for others that have had an abortion & hope that they find peace with the choice.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:43 PM

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OH MY!!! HAS ANYONE NOTICED THE ADS THAT ARE ON THIS PAGE? ADOPTION!

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:46 PM

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i'd pay to put public service announcements in support of abortion on tv and the radio.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:56 PM

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Google must be anti-choice.
Boo Google.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 2:57 PM

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ever notice that animals don't get into their bodies to kill their unborn?

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 3:36 PM

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right, they either eat their young or abandon the ones that are either too small or weak or unwanted. let's do that instead.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 3:39 PM

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omg you guys. they are animals. you can't compare that.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 3:40 PM

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Tell that to the "we are all god's creatures" crowd.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 3:41 PM

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so, comparing ourselves to the animal kingdom IS a good idea? if a dog had a litter of 10 puppies, only the ones who could grab the nipple and feed would survive. should a human mother with sextuplets only allow the babies who can fight their way to her breasts live?

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 3:42 PM

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Yea, sometimes the father hamster likes to eat the baby hamsters. Let's do that too!

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 3:43 PM

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animals don't get drunk and do drugs and hang around the "wrong" crowd and engage in self-destructive behaviour. they probably don't have a lot of sex that's simply sex for the sake of sex.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 3:44 PM

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and animals walk around w/o clothes, have out-of-wedlock sex, some w/ multiple partners. let's live like the animals! dr. doolittle? are you there?

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 3:45 PM

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I'f Christains have acted like this throughout history, no wonder they were persecuted. Get off PT and go to church or something.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 3:46 PM

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its not Sunday, and I didn't realize PT was only for athiests

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 4:12 PM

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If you aren't a Christian you're an athiest? teehee!

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 4:55 PM

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I'm an atheist...I ROCK!!!! And while I am pro-choice...I think there is something a little wrong with 2nd or third trimester abortions. If you need that long to decide you don't want a baby then you need to live with the consequences of that.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 4:59 PM

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so any other religion is fine, just not a Christian religion? Sounds like censorship to me.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 5:01 PM

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this thread has really gone to far, there are too many closed minds, and rude comments. No one is going to change anyones minds with these arguments anyways. How do we end the thread?

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 5:03 PM

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ask PT to delete it. i think we have beat this subject around way too long.

Thursday, August 02, 2007, 6:30 PM

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1:02 I agree with you..... I know women who have gotten pregnant while using THREE methods of contraceptives simulaneously. My own aunt had her tubes tied and still had more children. Roe V. Wade cannot, and should not, EVER be overturned.

Friday, August 03, 2007, 12:53 AM

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For those of you who have had abortions and now regret it because of the emotional trauma you experienced. That's horrible and I'm sorry that you are going through that. However, your trauma, is not reason to take away the right to choose from millions of women. We are adults, let us make choices about our own body.

I highly doubt that any woman goes into an abortion thinking she will not be emotionally affected in any way. Women are a lot smarter than we get credit for and even if you don't want a child, and choose an abortion, it doesn't mean you are thrilled to be going through that. Being pro-choice does not mean you are "Yay! Abortion!". It is a highly emotional experience and decision. One that should be made by a woman, her partner and her doctor. Not by you!

Friday, August 03, 2007, 1:32 AM

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I saw on the Discovery Channel once that there are only two animals on earth that get pleasure out of sex - humans and dolphins. Other animals do it purely out of instinct, and the need to procreate. They do not enjoy it like humans and dolphins.

Not sure if it's true or not, outdated or otherwise, but it is interesting!! Since some of the above posters were comparing us to animals.

Friday, August 03, 2007, 5:59 PM

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I'm sorry but it is not a human being for the first trimester. It's a group of cells that has the potential to be a human. Having an abortion is NOT the same thing as killing a human being with your hands!

Sunday, August 05, 2007, 1:54 AM

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RE: "I saw on the Discovery Channel once that there are only two animals on earth that get pleasure out of sex - humans and dolphins. Other animals do it purely out of instinct, and the need to procreate. They do not enjoy it like humans and dolphins."

Have you ever seen a dog try to hump your friend's leg, or the leg of a sofa? Is that instinct or pursuit of pleasure?

Sunday, August 05, 2007, 12:46 PM

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RE: "Evolution is not a fact. They can't "prove" any of it. Its a "theory". Hence called THEORY of evolution."

Has it been proven that there is a god?

Sunday, August 05, 2007, 12:51 PM

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12:21
Oh shut your pretentious hole.
Why are people like you all about the rights of the thing of cells, and not even considering the rights of the mother. SHe is a person with a life, a soul, family, friends, goals, aspirations, dreams. You are neglecting everything about her including these things when you take away her right to choose.
The "thing of cells " has none of these things. No feeling, no love, soul, no pleasure and no pain. It can't hold a higher proirity over the mother's wishes.

Sunday, August 05, 2007, 2:03 PM

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Not to mention it's not 18 yrs of age . . .

Sunday, August 05, 2007, 2:13 PM

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A dog will hump whatever it can. Its an instinct. I saw a female dog do it once. Kinda weird :0/

Sunday, August 05, 2007, 4:48 PM

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I can't believe this thread is acutally still going. Move on people. No one will EVER agree.

Sunday, August 05, 2007, 4:49 PM

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So, what should the penalty be for a woman who has an illegal abortion?

Sunday, August 05, 2007, 5:30 PM

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Did you guys know Roe is prolife now?

Sunday, August 05, 2007, 11:17 PM

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Roe is pro-life now, eh? Funny how people get more righteous and/or religious as they get old.

Sunday, August 05, 2007, 11:55 PM

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Having sex = a chance of getting prego
If people would just wait till they were ready to take responsibilty for the possibility of having a baby the this would not be an issue. And I am not sure why it is viewed as a Christian thing to be pro-life. Plenty if pro life people are not Christians. And believe it or not some people can restrain their desire for sex till they are ready for the responsibilties that go along with it. If more people kept their legs shut there would be so many less abortions and STD's.

Monday, August 06, 2007, 12:13 AM

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5:30
To answer your question about pnishment for illegal abortions. I think that the punishment would only go to the doctor, that is IF they can prove he gave it to her. WHich would be REALLY hard or impossible. This about it, if it's illegal, he can't keep records, and they can't check her body because that's a violation of her personal rights.

Therefore, the only way that an illegal abortion would be discovered is if a woman has complications and dies from it. Which may become common, because a woman will not go to the ER for signs of infection and etc. in the chance of being discovered. Doctors will also not have standards and government rules to follow, as well as updated equipment, so complications will be more common. More women will die. And that's not even considering all the women who will attempt the plethora of do-it-at-home abortions and die also.

So banning abortion would hurt a lot of women, and a lot of doctors. Many women with money will pay large amounts of money to doctors to perform illegal abortions, so price regulation would be impossibe and their charges would go through the roof. Poorer women would not be able to afford it, and would be forced to do it at home, in essence, suicide.

As we all know, a law will not stop people from doing something. They will just do it in secret.

12:13
What would you say about the married woman who is in her 40's, has 5 children, who is in incredible debt, and she and her disabled husband cannot afford another child, and she gets pregnant by accident?
(This is a woman that I know)
All people who get abortions are not irresponsible. "Keeping the legs shut" may be an easy argument for you, since you are probably a spindrel with 12 cats, but for real people, accidents do happen.

Monday, August 06, 2007, 10:39 AM

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can you claim your fetus as a dependent when filing taxes? why has everyone who is against abortion failed to debate this question? the government does not recognize the fetus as a human being.

Monday, August 06, 2007, 11:01 AM

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10:39
I would say that your friend needs to be very careful not to get pg. Even if it goes to the point of not having sex during ovulation. If they are as low income as you say they should be able to get free protection from the health dept. Double up on protection. Use condoms and the pill. There are plenty of ways to avoid getting pg while married.
And in answer to your personal comment to me, I am not a spindrel with 12 cats. I am a young 30 yrs old woman who has been married for 10 yrs and has only one child (age 2). It is possible to avoid getting pg while married. We did not want to have a baby till we had been married for several yrs. We did indeed use plenty of protection in the early yrs cause we wanted to finish school and be ready to have a baby. And fyi I only have 2 cats. lol

Monday, August 06, 2007, 11:02 AM

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can you claim your fetus as a dependent when filing taxes? why has everyone who is against abortion failed to debate this question? the government does not recognize the fetus as a human being.


Monday, August 06, 2007, 1:23 PM

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"we" came to the us to get away from the uber-puritan religious legions in europe. we established freedom of religion AND freedom from religion.

Monday, August 06, 2007, 1:55 PM

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Nicely put 1:48!!!!!!! & 1:55!!!!!!

Monday, August 06, 2007, 4:25 PM

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1:55- actually, no, the original pilgrims didn't come to the US to escape the uber puritan religions of europe- they were actually kicked out of England for being ultra-religious uber-puritans and pissing off the Anglicans. They emigrated to the Netherlands, but found the Dutch (even then!) to be too tolerant, accepting and, well, Dutch. So, they hired a boat and headed west to a place where they felt they could practice their own version of ultra-strict puritanism without interference.

As is so often the case, the second generation of Puritans were not quite as interested in Puritan Orthodoxy as were their parents. Whereas the original puritans saw New England as a place to create their version of heaven on earth (a dull heaven indeed), their children saw America as a place where they could make a fortune if they played their cards right.

And thus has the history of our Country gone- The Religious and their desire for a better world through the strict following of God's word fighting against the Secular, commercial interests that strive to create a better world through commerce and science.



Monday, August 06, 2007, 4:49 PM

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can you claim your fetus as a dependent when filing taxes? why has everyone who is against abortion failed to debate this question? the government does not recognize the fetus as a human being.


Tuesday, August 07, 2007, 8:26 AM

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Ok 8:26 give it up with the cutting and pasting over and over and over again and try adding another independent thought to the debate, you are taking up thread space.

Tuesday, August 07, 2007, 9:38 AM

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when the question is addressed, i will.

Tuesday, August 07, 2007, 9:51 AM

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can you claim your fetus as a dependent when filing taxes? why has everyone who is against abortion failed to debate this question? the government does not recognize the fetus as a human being.


Wednesday, August 08, 2007, 3:17 PM

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why was that posted again? obviously no one is going to answer it.

you can't always go by what the government "says" anyways. a bunch of old men making rules they don't have to follow doesn't really mean much to me.

Wednesday, August 08, 2007, 3:27 PM

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no one is going to respond to the question because there is no valid argument against it. the abortion protesters pick and choose the same arguments to have over and over and avoid the questions that haven't been posed before. they will not admit that there are any valid points to be made in favor of abortion.

Thursday, August 09, 2007, 9:04 AM

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Well, I must admit that I am really surprised to see a thread like this.

There is a really good way to assure that you don't have to have an abortion. Don't have sex. If you want to have sex with out becoming pregnant have your ovaries removed. It is actually a safer procedure than having an abortion. I am reminded of the 17 year old girl who went to Planned Parenthood to have an abortion, ended up with a punctured uterus, severe bleeding and had to be rushed to a Tertiary Care hospital for an emergent hysterectomy. No children for her. Ever. Especially if every person that does not want the child that they have conceived aborts him/her. There will be no children for her to adopt.

Another thought... it may be your body, but the life inside of you is not yours to end. Regardless of how you view it, life begins at conception. The child in you can not maintain life with out the protection and nourishment of your body. In the same way, a full term infant can not maintain life with out the protection and nourishment of another person caring for her/him.

I hope and pray that Roe v. Wade is overturned. The lady (Norma McCorvey) that started it does too. Norma McCorvey became a member of the pro-life movement in 1995; she now supports making abortion illegal. In 1998, she testified to Congress:

"It was my pseudonym, Jane Roe, which had been used to create the "right" to abortion out of legal thin air. But Sarah Weddington and Linda Coffee never told me that what I was signing would allow women to come up to me 15, 20 years later and say, "Thank you for allowing me to have my five or six abortions. Without you, it wouldn't have been possible." Sarah never mentioned women using abortions as a form of birth control. We talked about truly desperate and needy women, not women already wearing maternity clothes."

As a party to the original litigation, she sought to reopen the case in U.S. District Court in Texas to have Roe v. Wade overturned. However, the Fifth Circuit decided that her case was moot, in McCorvey v. Hill. In a concurring opinion, Judge Edith Jones agreed that McCorvey was raising legitimate questions about emotional and other harm suffered by women who have had abortions, about increased resources available for the care of unwanted children, and about new scientific understanding of fetal development, but Jones said she was compelled to agree that the case was moot. On February 22, 2005, the Supreme Court refused to grant a writ of certiorari, and McCorvey's appeal ended.

It is a fact that women who have had an abortion experience lower self esteem, are more promiscuous and have more emotional problems than those who do not. It is not to say that she is unworthy, it is simply that she has been misled by politics and society. If an egg can be fertilized outside of the womb and grow in a tube until such a time as it is implanted into the surrogate mothers womb, life begins at conception... there is not a mother in this world that has had to go through IVF that would disagree with me.

Why do women think they have to be a sex toy anyway? How many of you women that have had abortions had sex just because you wanted to? Be real now. Wasn’t it because you were hoping for some intimacy, care and closeness with another human? If the man that you had sex with when you became pregnant just wanted to cuddle and talk, would you have forced him into sex? Ladies, you are above this. You are a worthy person and deserve better. A man prefers a woman that is secure and not a push over. Regardless of what they say, if you hop into bed with them before you even know their first name (I know that I am exaggerating) what surprise is there for the future? Where is the mystery?

My last question, why did you have an abortion? The real reason please?

Thursday, August 09, 2007, 5:43 PM

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i had an abortion because, through engaging in dangerous, self-destructive behaviour as a result from bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, i got drunk, did drugs and had unprotected sex. i did not know how to "plan" for mistakes because i had no idea i could make mistakes. i did not know that my behavior was classic, textbook, case-study behavior that followed a pattern. i was irrational and sick. i got pregnant during a time when i drank heavily and did many drugs. i was not (obviously) mentally or emotionally capable of even taking care of or responsibility for myself. i could not have been trusted to eat properly, stop drinking, abstain from using drugs, visit a doctor/gyn, get a stable job, make new friends. i was not capable of even growing a healthy fetus, let alone giving birth to a healthy baby. i am proud that i made the right decision and had an abortion. i have never wanted children and had requested at every gynecologist visit that i be sterilized, or have my tubes tied, or whatever they had to do to prevent me from becoming pregnant. because i was under 30 years old and unmarried, no doctor would perfom such a procedure. so take your opinion and swaddle it and raise it to adulthood, or give it up for others to take care of. stop thinking you know what's best for other people. if you want to walk a mile in my shoes, come and put them on. i have no regrets, no guilt, and no sorrow or feelings of loss. if you people want to take care of the uncared for, the unwanted, why not support more funding for the mentally ill and the huge costs to receive care ? if i had been better treated and could have afforded more treatment, i probably would not have ever had an unwanted pregnancy. but make no mistake, it was the pregnancy that was unwanted, not the abortion. i not only support optional abortions but i think some should be mandatory.

Friday, August 10, 2007, 9:01 AM

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the opinion that life begins at conception is just an opinion. my opinion is that the possibility for life begins when a pregnant woman decides to maintain her pregnancy. a fetus is like a parasite, a larvae, a mold spore. it needs another life form to feed off. it has no life force of its own to sustain its growth.

Friday, August 10, 2007, 9:11 AM

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Right on 9:01!

Friday, August 10, 2007, 9:15 AM

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Why do women think they have to be a sex toy anyway? How many of you women that have had abortions had sex just because you wanted to? Be real now. Wasn’t it because you were hoping for some intimacy, care and closeness with another human? If the man that you had sex with when you became pregnant just wanted to cuddle and talk, would you have forced him into sex? Ladies, you are above this. You are a worthy person and deserve better. A man prefers a woman that is secure and not a push over. Regardless of what they say, if you hop into bed with them before you even know their first name (I know that I am exaggerating) what surprise is there for the future? Where is the mystery?

it must be nice to be so loved and healthy and have a home to go to every night and see the world through rose colored glasses. wake up and see the reality. it's not a conscious choice women make to seek out poor choices for lovers. it is not a conscious decision to have unsafe sex and be abandoned or earn a bad reputation. it is not a conscious decision to try to find and absorb the littlest amount of what could in some conceivable way be considered love or affection, when your own childhood was devoid of both. many women are lost, are sick, are confused about the attention they receive and seek. many women are without any form of guidance. many women cannot see themselves as clearly as a healthy, stable, unaddicted outsider may be able to see them. many women don't point fingers and try to use logic to discover the pains and tragedies and sufferings of other women. where is the mystery? it lies in the conclusion that rational, functional, healthy and stable women are the majority of those getting abortions. and the mystery also lies in the inability of some women to see that. why not try to tackle the cause of unwanted pregnancies-not the easily seen cause of unsafe sex, but the underlying cause of why girls have unsafe sex to begin with? why are girls equating unsafe sex with love/affection?


Friday, August 10, 2007, 9:22 AM

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well, what response do you abortion-opposers have to the above? have you ever looked at the situation that way? have you taken any new perspectives from the responses to your questions?

Friday, August 10, 2007, 11:36 AM

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apparently those who would do away with abortion only ask questions, they don't answer them. at least not the rational questions.

Friday, August 10, 2007, 3:28 PM

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Dear Friday, August 10, 2007, 9:01 AM,
Please read my response to your answer with an open heart. I will place my answer in parenthesis so that it will be easier to see who wrote what.
i had an abortion because, through engaging in dangerous, self-destructive behaviour as a result from bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, (I am so very sorry that you have this mental illness. It is a tragic illness to try to cope with and to diagnose. I have a 22 year old daughter with Bipolar Type II Rapid Cycle. She started having problems at about age 12. At first she was manic most of the time and she would place herself in very dangerous situations.) i got drunk, did drugs and had unprotected sex (My daughter got into all of these things too, to be honest with you, I never got into drugs but I drank a lot and had unprotected sex, my behavior is said to have been the result of sexual abuse. My grandfather sexually abused me from a very young age and when I was in about 1st or 2nd grade I was raped by two high school boys. My father was a drug addict and alcoholic, he was very abusive) i did not know how to "plan" for mistakes because i had no idea i could make mistakes. i did not know that my behavior was classic, textbook, case-study behavior that followed a pattern. i was irrational and sick. i got pregnant during a time when i drank heavily and did many drugs. i was not (obviously) mentally or emotionally capable of even taking care of or responsibility for myself. i could not have been trusted to eat properly, stop drinking, abstain from using drugs, visit a doctor/gyn (who told you how to get an abortion? I truly hope that it was not a doctor) , get a stable job, make new friends. i was not capable of even growing a healthy fetus, let alone giving birth to a healthy baby. (I am sincerely sorry for i am proud that i made the right decision and had an abortion. i have never wanted children and had requested at every gynecologist visit that i be sterilized (I believe that when a person has a mental illness that is as self destructive as Bipolar and schizophrenia, serious consideration should be given to sterilization), or have my tubes tied, or whatever they had to do to prevent me from becoming pregnant. because i was under 30 years old and unmarried, no doctor would perform such a procedure (How did you know this if you did not know about going to an OB/GYN for care? Who told you about the sterilization procedure? It saddens me that they did not take you somewhere to be cared for and treated with respect and dignity). so take your opinion and swaddle it and raise it to adulthood, or give it up for others to take care of. stop thinking you know what's best for other people. if you want to walk a mile in my shoes, come and put them on. i have no regrets, no guilt, and no sorrow or feelings of loss (You really seem to be very angry though, and I can understand why). if you people want to take care of the uncared for, the unwanted, why not support more funding for the mentally ill and the huge costs to receive care ? if i had been better treated and could have afforded more treatment, i probably would not have ever had an unwanted pregnancy (I agree that it would have been better for you to have had better treatment. How are you doing now? I have fought for better mental health care for years now and will continue to do so. I have taken in complete strangers in an effort to help them and to get them the help that they need, I truly wish that I could do more and will continue to try). but make no mistake, it was the pregnancy that was unwanted, not the abortion. i not only support optional abortions but i think some should be mandatory. I would like for you to know, your baby is in heaven with God and Jesus loves you. I pray that someone, a real Christian, not one who claims to be and is not, will come into your life and befriend you. You deserve a break and a loving, caring friend that wants nothing from you except true friendship, you deserve it.

Friday, August 10, 2007, 3:34 PM

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Dear Friday, August 10, 2007, 9:11 AM
the opinion that life begins at conception is just an opinion (it is not my opinion, it is a fact, proven scientifically). my opinion is that the possibility for life begins when a pregnant woman decides to maintain her pregnancy. a fetus is like a parasite, a larvae, a mold spore. (I did not start from a parasite, a larvae or a mold spore, you did not either, you may not want to believe it, however, it is true) it needs another life form to feed off (so do you, every human does). it has no life force of its own to sustain its growth (you can not sustain life with out other people either, it is impossible to sustain it indefinitely without other people).


Friday, August 10, 2007, 3:36 PM

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Dear Friday, August 10, 2007, 9:22 AM
it must be nice to be so loved (I am loved, Jesus was the first person in my life that loved me, it has made all of the difference in the world to me. Anything good that comes from me is because of Him) and healthy (I am not healthy. I have several illnesses and have had to have a lot of surgery and various other treatments but I thank Jesus for the health and well being I do have.) and have a home to go to every night (I do have a home. It may not be the best or the most beautiful in the land, but I have a roof over my head, some months I wonder if I will still have it next month, but God has been graceful with me and given me things that I don’t deserve, that is why I open my home up to those that are sick and hurting) and see the world through rose colored glasses (I do have to wear glasses, but they are not rose colored, I see the world clearly and it saddens me very much, I often wonder why God puts up with us even though I know the answer. He loves us). wake up and see the reality. it's not a conscious choice women make to seek out poor choices for lovers (I agree with you on this point, I know this from first hand experience, my grandfather abused me, my father abused and abandoned me, my mother was always so depressed she would not get out of bed so my grandma, the one that was married to the grandpa that sexually abused me, tried to take care of me). it is not a conscious decision to have unsafe sex and be abandoned or earn a bad reputation (I understand this and completely agree). it is not a conscious decision to try to find and absorb the littlest amount of what could in some conceivable way be considered love or affection, when your own childhood was devoid of both (this is the point I was trying to get across, it may not have come across the way I intended, but this is what I meant). many women are lost, are sick, are confused about the attention they receive and seek. many women are without any form of guidance. many women cannot see themselves as clearly as a healthy, stable, unaddicted outsider may be able to see them (I know all of this first hand, this is why I try to tell you, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, it only comes through Jesus, he truly is the only person in the universe that you can rely on, he will never leave you or forsake you). many women don't point fingers and try to use logic to discover the pains and tragedies and sufferings of other women. where is the mystery? it lies in the conclusion that rational, functional, healthy and stable women are the majority of those getting abortions (this is probably very true). and the mystery also lies in the inability of some women to see that. why not try to tackle the cause of unwanted pregnancies-not the easily seen cause of unsafe sex, but the underlying cause of why girls have unsafe sex to begin with? why are girls equating unsafe sex with love/affection? (exactly my point that is why I tell you, there is only one that will give you unconditional love and affection. You may not see Him, but once you truly know Him, you will feel the affection)


Friday, August 10, 2007, 3:37 PM

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Friday, August 10, 2007, 11:36 AM
well, what response do you abortion-opposers have to the above? (I put my response in writing and stick by it) have you ever looked at the situation that way? (I have, and I believe that God will forgive anyone who wants His forgiveness, even the awful men that caused you to hurt the way you do, but the men may never know that what they did was wrong, until that is, the day they have to bow down and answer to God for their actions) have you taken any new perspectives from the responses to your questions? (No, I have not, I do not judge you, there is no sin greater than another, having an abortion is a sin, so is going 1 mile over the speed limit, Accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior and being baptized into Him wipes the slat clean, you become as pure and white and the driven snow. This I pray for you, all of you, that you will seek and find the special gift of joy and peace that can only come from Him)


Friday, August 10, 2007, 3:37 PM

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Dear Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:09 PM,
Your comment pasted below is very discriminatory. You want pro choice, everything in life is a choice. Everything. The most important choice you will ever make is this one: You will either choose Christ and accept Him as your Lord and Savior, or you will choose Hell. If you do nothing at all, you are making a choice. Will you live with it or will you burn for eternity because of the way you believe what others tell you? I am not say that because you are pro-abortion that are going to burn in Hell, I am saying that you have to make a choice, God is pro-choice. He loves us so much that he gave us free will to make our own choices. He just hopes that we choose Him. Any other decision is the wrong choice. May you be blessed with the right choice.
12:01 -
There are plenty of families waiting for children to adopt, and there are millions and millions of children around the world living in orphanages with dire conditions waiting to be adopted. Chona, Romania, Russia, you name it. There doesn't have to be more.

Personally, I am pro-choice. But in some cases, I am pro-abortion. For instance, I think some types of abortions should be allowed even the child is already born, with unlimited amount of time, in rare cases. Take George W. Bush - now there's a sucker just begging to be aborted!

Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:09 PM



Friday, August 10, 2007, 3:46 PM

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Dear
Wednesday, August 08, 2007, 3:17 PM and
Wednesday, August 08, 2007, 3:27 PM and
Thursday, August 09, 2007, 9:04 AM ,

In answer to your questions, see inside the backetts [ ]
can you claim your fetus as a dependent when filing taxes? [no, and I can't claim you either, does that make you less human, less alive?] why has everyone who is against abortion failed to debate this question? [Please tell me what there is to debate and I will let you know if it is worth the energy] the government does not recognize the fetus as a human being [though the Government does not have the power to determine when life begins, since they have tried to claim they do, I will address this statement and say, the Government has determine that life begins at conception. I reference the following:
1.205. 1. The general assembly finds that:

(1) The life of each human being begins at conception;

(2) Unborn children have protectable interests in life, health, and well-being;

(3) The natural parents of unborn children have protectable interests in the life, health, and well-being of their unborn child.

2. Effective January 1, 1988, the laws shall be interpreted and construed to acknowledge on behalf of the unborn child at every stage of development, all the rights, privileges, and immunities available to other persons, citizens, and residents of this state, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and decisional interpretations thereof by the United States Supreme Court and specific provisions to the contrary in the statutes and constitution of this state.

3. As used in this section, the term "unborn children" or "unborn child" shall include all unborn child or children or the offspring of human beings from the moment of conception until birth at every stage of biological development.

4. Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as creating a cause of action against a woman for indirectly harming her unborn child by failing to properly care for herself or by failing to follow any particular program of prenatal care.
Dear Thursday, August 09, 2007, 9:04 AM,
In response to your statement below,
no one is going to respond to the question because there is no valid argument against it. the abortion protesters pick and choose the same arguments to have over and over and avoid the questions that haven't been posed before. they will not admit that there are any valid points to be made in favor of abortion.

[If I went with my human response it would be very rude and really uncalled for, so I will go with this response in the form of a question: What ARE the valid points to be made in favor of abortion?]

Friday, August 10, 2007, 4:12 PM

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901 here

look, i do appreciate that you took the time to respond, even if it's a bit confusing the way you responded line-by-line, but still. i have to say a few things with regard to some questions you posed. no one told me to get an abortion. that was my instinctual decision. i was told by my gynecologist during regular check ups, for many years (since i was 17), that i was too young to know what i may want in the future. i had a sense of awareness about what i was capable of handling as far as responsibilities, and with that awareness realized that i could not be a healthy pregnant person. thanks for the words that i am sure were meant to be nice, but i do not believe in god or the power of jesus or heaven or hell or most spiritual stuff in the bible. please do not state as fact that you know that my baby (which, by the way never existed-it was a fetus that was terminated) is with jesus or anyone else. you do not know the suffering i have endured because of the catholic church and its followers. and frankly, i find it insulting. again, i am sure you did not mean to be insulting. if you caould just express your opinions without relying on your interpretation of gods will or what is sinful, i would be able to carry on a discussion much more whole-heartedly. but, with the insistence of the existence of such ideas, i'm afraid we have fundamentally opposing views and will not really be able to fully understand each other. oh well. it was a nice effort.

Friday, August 10, 2007, 4:23 PM

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Dear Friday, August 10, 2007, 4:23 PM AKA 90;

Again, I am so sorry. I am not Catholic and know many people that were and have left the Catholic Church. One friend told me that she had to have 3 abortions because the Priest told her that an abortion was a one time sin and that he could forgive her for that but that if she took the pill it would be an intentional and ongoing sin because she would plan to take it everyday. It is no wonder that so many people are against Jesus and God. There are so many people out there that are so fake and use religion to harm people. I also know many, many people that were abused by their priests. Anyway, I understand that you do not want me to talk to you about Jesus and I will honor that request because I would like to talk with you more. I feel strongly for you as another human being and can truly imagine some of the pain and the feelings that you have experienced in your life. As a side note, (I was raised in an atheist home and thought I was one myself, end of that talk).

Now, please tell me how you are doing today? Have you been able to find help for your mental health issues?

Friday, August 10, 2007, 4:35 PM

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4:12

To prevent illegal, unmonitored, unclean, unsafe, overpriced, and un-regulated at-home abortions.

Saturday, August 11, 2007, 9:08 AM

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12:09
Please do yourself a huge favor and shut your ignorant and self-righteous pie-hole. God this, God that....I happen to have a very close relationship with god and I AM SO GLAD YOU ARE NOT HIS MESSENGER.

I am just going to take everything you just wrote about hll, heaven, burning, eternity, etc. and consider it a lapse in your schizo meds. and disregard it. Hopefully, you will have better judgement in the future when making a public post where people can dicerd an idiot from a non-idiot. You, my dear friend fall inthe category of pure and unadulterated idiot.

Saturday, August 11, 2007, 9:13 AM

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Hey 9:13...
At least you prove you have such a close relationship with God by saying things He would say. "Please do yourself a huge favor and shut your ignorant and self-righteous pie-hole." That is not something Jesus would say. I hope you do find Jesus and he helps you see the truth!

Saturday, August 11, 2007, 2:51 PM

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Wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute...

Did NOBODY notice that a pro-choice person said that some abortions should be mandatory? And someone backed her up?
Mandatory is the complete opposite of choice! (And I'm pro-choice!)

Saturday, August 11, 2007, 10:07 PM

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2:51
If you read the bible, you would know that Jesus lashed out in anger not once, not twice, but many times at sinners and rediculous people like you. But I'm guessing you are one of those hicks that don't actually read the boook they believe in, you just tae someone else's word for it.

Sunday, August 12, 2007, 12:54 AM

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taboo alternative view

Let me just say something that I've never heard voiced before that is probably thought of by more than myself. The big question always seems to be about when life begins. I say that takes a back seat to this. When is life worth avoiding? It is always assumed that every person is glad he wasn't aborted. That is untrue. An ongoing argument is whether people are basically good or bad. Many say bad. Look at the rate of depression. Consider the amount of suicide that gets ignored every day. For those of us that see life as a spiritual prison sentence, trapped here because of religious fears and care for their loved ones, I would have thanked the person who aborted me. Saving me from all the suffering we must endure day after day, the pointlessness of life, and the wasted energy spent on living one more day for no reason at all. Why don't we consider the hell children will be born into when their parent(s) are unfit to care for a goldfish. Their economic situation will leave them at a constant disadvantage from birth to at least eighteen years. There congenital health may challenge them for life. Or they may be unlucky enough to be dealt the genetic schematic for depression from cradle to grave. We love people that overcome the hardship they were born into but is it right to inflict this on an innocent fetus? To know someone is headed for a hellish existence and not make a hard choice to do anything about it is a sin by omission. Like watching someone drown. We like telling each other it's a happy smiley world. That's fine for those of us already stuck here, but let's lot make an innocent person suffer just to help us believe the lie. Sometimes we need to face the ugly truth and do the right thing.

Sunday, August 12, 2007, 7:47 AM

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This just enrages me. I recently read a very eye-opening book, and a chapter was devoted to the mother's body, and who has rights over it. Why is it that as soon as a woman's pregnant, her body becomes a matter of public, political concern? This is actually part of the social-psychological complex that contributes to distortion of body image, etc..., in our culture. The anti-abortion debate contributes to the objectification of women's bodies, just like porn.

Sunday, August 12, 2007, 8:12 AM

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12:54am
I am someone who reads the bible and while yes Jesus did did state the truth to everyone even if the truth hurt, He never did it with malice. I believe in your original post you were belittling the person you were talking to. I was just saying that if you were a follower of Christ than you should gaurd your words and act like Jesus. Col 3:8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander and abusive speech from your mouth.

Sunday, August 12, 2007, 9:03 AM

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So many angry and hurting people

Dear father in heaven please here my words, there are so many hurting people in this world, I know that you are truly in control and do not wish harm for anyone. You have given all free will, free to make our own choices, good or bad, right or wrong, we will pay for them, our children will pay for them and those that we love will pay for them. The worst sadness is that Jesus, your son, paid the price for all of the sin there shall ever be, one time for all of us who choose to believe in him and follow his commands.

Lord God, you and you alone know the hearts of the individuals that are on this site, only you can judge. As Christians we are commanded to rebuke those who sin and to bring them back into repentance. There is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism. We know that in 1 John 2:4-6 your word says "The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. " We also know that you are just and that you forgive our sins. Right now my Father, I ask that you make all of these people that are hurting so deeply, aware of your loving presence, change their hearts dear God and place the person in their path that will lead them to you. Thank you so much for your love. This is a sad, sinful, terrible life unless we have a personal and saving relationship with you. Even then, there is still sadness, sorrow, pain and evil, yet we look forward to the day when we have served you fully and you call us to eternity. To the day we bow down in your presence and hear the words "well done my good and faithful servant". This I pray for all those that are hurting, misled and heading down the wrong path. Change their hearts Dear Lord. It is in the name of Jesus Christ, you’re Son and my Savior I come to you now.

Monday, August 13, 2007, 6:04 PM

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too bad mary didn't have an abortion. we may have been spared the bible passages for another century.

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 8:36 AM

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People who pray publically scare me, I immediately think of all the innocent people being burnt as whitches while the crowed prayed.

However 8:36, you comment is NOT appropriate. It insults a lot of people, including me, and I am an atheist. Humanist.

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 12:21 PM

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Abortion was made a right for good reason no "GOD" may not agree with the CHOICE which is ours to make but I dont think he has agreed to raping women, poverty or ignorance that doesnt mean it doesnt happen. Sometimes the choice to abort a unborn fetus means saving 1 life instead of losing 2. I certainly don't agree with someone having multiple abortions we should learn from our mistakes.but.......Abortion is a Choice....weather you like it or not.

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 12:50 PM

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well, opinions aren't always PC. the bible is meaningless as a source of spiritual guidance in my opinion, so my suggestion about mary is about as insulting as saying that hansel and gretel had bad parents. please.

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 1:37 PM

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1:37
Actually, your oroginal comment was insulting. Even to me, and I am not a Christian. Keep your rediculous trap shut. The praying comment before you was rediculous too, but yours is just the same, except on the other side of the spectrum.

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 1:42 PM

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"Keep your rediculous trap shut." that's comedy. trying to preeach about the proper way to express oneself without insulting another, and this is the phrase you use. comedy. i'll bet there are some bible-thumpers who would prefer that darwin's mother had an abortion. oh, the horror of expressed thoughts that go against convential wisdom!!! please save me from an opposing viewpoint!!!!

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 1:54 PM

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1:54 People who express thoughts agains conventional wisdom for the higher purpose are people worth admiration. You are not.

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 2:01 PM

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1:54
Comedy? I'm glad you found it amusing. Maybe all the laughing will work those rolls off your belly. OR maybe not, and you will be stuff on PT for a long time, torturing us all.

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 2:24 PM

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keep the personal insults, even those directed at some imaginery fat person w/ rolls, coming if that's the only way you can respond to an expression of another's opinion with which you vehemently disagree. we all do what we can with what we have. the idea of some people on a website not liking "me" and the hurling of insults do not in any way sway my views or create any feelings of unworthiness within me. good luck with yourselves!

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 3:23 PM

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I think that this forum has lost its direction a little?

Anyhow, personal attacks aren't nice. Discuss reasonably, or leave, please.

I'm pro-Life, but also a very strong femenist. I believe that the "choice" in the matter comes in when you decide whether or not to use a condom and take BC, since the chances of you getting pregnant while using both are minimal.

Pro-life or pro-choice would both agree that MOST women would prefer to put some rubber on the guy instead of dealing with a painful and possibly dangerous procedure. If you'd rather have a dangerous operation than a nonevasive peice of plastic, I'm sorry, but you're insane, and the law dictates you have no right to make choices anyway.

I don't think the issue should be ABORTION, I think it should be prevention. And no, I'm not some uptight religious preacher praising abstinence. I agree, that's futile. But, if you are emotionally and mentally able to engage in sex, then you must also take the possibility of responsibility and consequence and take precautions.

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 3:41 PM

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Abortion illegal response

Considering that 37 million people 25 million that were supposed to be in my generation were killed, I think the resolution is a great thing. The interesting thing is when Hillary Clinton and others at the World Congress of Women talked about making abortion available to women in other countries, they saw it for what it was and rejected it

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 3:46 PM

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Way to go 3:41!! I agree with you! The % of getting preg if being cautious is minimal. And so if we would focus more on that there would be few abortions anyway.

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 5:16 PM

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Die thread, die!

Tuesday, August 14, 2007, 5:18 PM

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Lamb Chop singing:
This is the thread that never ends. It just goes on and on my friend, some people started posting it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting forever just because this is the post that never ends.........

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 8:42 AM

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3:41
You can't be any kind of feminist and be anti-abortion. You just can't.

And for many Americans, prevention is not even a possibility. Some of you speak of "we", "we" should ficus more on prevention.
Well, "you" and the people who most get abortions are not the same kind of people. Inner city kids, like the ones where I live, don't really have the education, money, choice. It's not a good thing, it's just that way right now.
Where I'm from, the employment rate is 25% of all able adults. Most of the unemployed are women -- single mothers-- who are on welfare and government assistance. It's really scary and a shame.

And there are way too many orphans in this world. So many children growing up without ever knowing a mother or father. Shouldn't the emphasis be on adoption ?

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 9:15 AM

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9:15
You proved my prevention point even more. If the women who get abortions where you come from are so low income they will qualify for free prevention at the health dept. It just takes some effort to do that.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 9:24 AM

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9:24
They're not women. They are girls.
12-17 years old. They dont have cars to get to the health dept.
They don't have parents to take them there, or bf's who care. At school, the staff are more concerned with metal detectors and finding guns than with these girls. They don't really have anywhere to turn. And if YOU are not doing something about it, then don't preach anti-abortion.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 9:27 AM

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It doesn't matter if 10% or 80% of those that need to have an abortion are young, poor women. If doesn't matter if the chance of getting pregnant when being careful is minimal. Minimal still means someone may get pregnant and whether it's 1000 women or 2 women, they should still have the choice, especially if they were being careful! It is not up to you or the government to tell me what to do if I get pregnant. I wouldn't qualify for welfare and you aren't going to support the child, so back off. I don't want a kid, and I'm careful. If I get pregnant despite that, I need to have abortion be legal. No one wants to have an abortion but it is a necessary medical procedure for some women. Laws shouldn't prevent that.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 12:49 PM

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9.15, perhaps the fact that they are so poor and unable to care for a child should've given them a little insight to the fact that, hey, maybe they should've been a little more careful?

I do agree about the adoption. However, many women don't even want to go through the pregnancy and birth, which they complain is dangerous, yadda yadda. I don't think it's right, but I know that if I mention adoption, as opposed to (cough)murder, I'll get women ranting about how it'll affect their bodies, etc.

And, I CAN be a femenist and be anti-abortion. It just differs where I chose to draw the line between 'female rights' and 'females getting away with murder 'cause they were careless sluts'.

Sorry, that's my take on it.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 2:05 PM

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I wasn't sure that I could actually kinda of hate someone that I haven't met yet but you learn something new everyday!

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 2:12 PM

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Kinda of?

You mean 'kinda'

or 'kind of'

Jeez.


And why do you hate her? I think her statement was rather true...harshly put..but true.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 2:23 PM

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Amen 2:05!!
Other than I am not a femenist (sorry no hard feelings) I completly agree! My thought is for 9:27, if you are so young that you can not drive to the health dept to get protection or have a bf that cares then what the heck are you doing having sex to begin with. Unwanted pg should not be the only concern for that girl. She should be wondering what funky std she might be getting from her sleeping around. Am I the only one who thinks that if you are that young you should keep your legs closed?? It sounds like we are trying to justify abortion for a small number of people who have little excuse for needing it.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 3:25 PM

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Wow Maybe You Should Get Of Your High Horse

"Just Keep Your legs Closed" 3:25 = If you live in an area where drugs are rampant, education is minimal, and all what you know is what you see. Offering abortions allows girls who have made a poor decision a second chance, so that they do not become a part of self fulfilling identity.
You probably are still a virgin, because no one found you attractive enough to go to bed with.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 4:39 PM

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God has given all of us freedom of choice, we are free to make our own choices, good or bad, right or wrong, we will pay for our choices good or bad, our children will pay for our poor decisions and those that we love will pay our poor decisions.

We the people, of this United States of America, have been given freedom of choice and freedom of speech. If this thread is to continue, please respect each persons freedom to speak their opinion. Please do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, I believe this site was meant to be helpful for building others up in the areas that the need to be encouraged. Offer your own opinion with respect and maturity.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 6:06 PM

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Whatever

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 6:23 PM

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And what about rape and incest?

Are women who are raped or victims of incest at fault for not being "careful"?

How do you draw the line beween those who are victims and those who are "careless"? Is a 12-year-old really careless? Or is she immature and uneducated and therefore a victim of her own immaturity or ignorance?

And while I am sure there are women who do not want to go through pregnancy because of what it will do to their body, I feel confident that this is the exception and not the norm. Perhaps I have more faith in human nature than some, but believe that most women probably agonize over the decision. And many do not feel it is a "choice" at all, but rather their only option - whether true or not.

When I as 16, I know I wouild have felt that way. Now, at 47, I have the maturity, education and self-confidence to know otherwise.

That said, I believe it is necessary for women to have the option of abortion and only hope that some day it will be unnecessary.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 6:52 PM

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Thank you, 6:52.
And to the woman (or man) who said "keep your legs closed", I hope you get raped tonight, and pecome pregnant with twins. Then, in your 2nd trimester, I hope that your doctor informs you that the twins are conjoined at the head and mentally retarted, and will have a painful and misarable life. Sound good to you?

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 7:14 PM

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2,05 poster

6.52, from my own experience it isn't the norm. And the idea that at 16 you would've thought your only option was an abortion is laughable. I'm 17 and think that's ridiculous. There's SO MANY options. I'm not saying that abstinence is the only way, just being careful and using methods against it.

The 'one day' you speak of is TODAY. Years ago, they didn't have male AND condoms, hormonal birth controls, the morning after pill, etc, etc. Now, they do, and thus, abortion is uneccesary.

As for 7.14, your comment was rude, obnoxious, and a little thick-headed. Personally, if I was raped, I would have taken the precautions to go to a clinic and get emergency contraception. Any woman who doesn't go and seek help after being raped is acting irresponsibly; harsh, I know. And I understand that emotionally you probably don't want to go get help and are shattered after a rape. But it's not just the looming possibility of getting pregnant (uhh...with your RAPIST'S baby), but also to see what funky STD you might've gotten, and unfortunately, as is the case with many rape victems, you might need stitches and other medical care 'down there'. It's a gruesome reality.

If I did get pregnant from that (and I would've asked for a follow-up blood test, again no one other than who you want is ALLOWED to find out), this first trimester rule allows you to make the decision early...VERY early. I can't speak for whether I'd keep the baby out of personal choice, I'm very pro-life, but at the same time, in that situation, I beleive the woman has the choice over whether to keep the fetus. 13 weeks is a long time, and I'm sorry, but longer than that is inhumane.. What? Would you want to have an abortion at 8 months? Really, this gives a nice middle ground.

And finally, 7.14, if that was to happen, my children would be able to wake in the morning with the pure satisfaction that they aren't you. Oh, let us kill all the imperfect babies! What's next? The Aryan belief of death to all non-blondes? Death to any infant that would maybe be born with a disfunctional arm/leg, or perhaps, none at all? Not to mention, I work with 'mentally retarded' babies thru toddlers, and they are FAR from miserable. If anything, I find them more endearing and loving sometimes than 'healthier' children. OK, maybe the baby won't be a lawyer or a doctor, but that doesn't make worth any less.

Sorry this post is so long..I had a lot to say.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 7:30 PM

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7.30 back.

Typos. I was typing quickly.

It IS the norm.

Male AND female condoms

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 7:32 PM

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I am the poster who reccomended that girls should keep their legs shut if they can not get to the health dept to get protection. I am really offended at some of the comments that were posted to me. Wow. How personal we can get when someone speaks against what you believe. I was speaking in general terms and get flamed for it.
4:39 I am happily married and have been for 10 yrs. Thanks for the concern.
6:52 I never mentioned rape or incest. Just those in the above mentioned catagory.
7:14 I don't have much to say to you cause I am honestly in shock that you could possibly wish something like that on anyone. You should make your words sweeter cause someday you may have to eat them.
7:30 I just have to say right on. I am proud that at your age you see the importance of life.

Wednesday, August 15, 2007, 8:22 PM

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why is the fact that many women do not operate within the same rational thinking patterns keep getting ignored. many are adressing the idea of just using the appropriate protections to avoid a pregnancy, but many alcoholic or drug dependent or love-starved women are not thinking clearly about "consequences" that may follow their actions-i mean, most alcoholics, drug addicts and loved-starved people don't think about anything else except where their next fix is coming from and when. it's like an adult dog that has never been trained. sure, you can scream at the dog and try to reason with it or explain that there are repercussions to pooping in the house or chewing up shoes. but the dog doesn't know any better. if you take the time to recognize that there are some important lessons that can be taught to the dog and have the patience to teach these lessons, much can be gained. but to label the dog's antics as "misbehaving" is not entirely accurate. the untrained dog is merely acting like an untrained dog, which is perfectly natural and should be expected. it's not just sex education that we need to provide to out children, but affection-education and self-worth-education, too.

Thursday, August 16, 2007, 8:31 AM

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to 3:46

Do you consider all the eggs that never got fertilized people that should have been in your generation? Is there a difference?

Thursday, August 16, 2007, 9:11 AM

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8:31 Thank you for your post! I feel the same way, well put & well thought out.

Thursday, August 16, 2007, 10:43 AM

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6:52 here

7:30 - You are correct, there are many options. What I said is that I would not have FELT that I had other options. I would have feared the repercussions from my family and peers and felt it was the end of the world. I KNOW there are options, but when one is in a crisis it can be difficult to see them for waht they are.

As for what you would do if you became pregnant as a result of rape, unless you have gone though it, I donl;t think you can truly know. I was raped at 10. Luckily I did not become pregnant. I was too young. BUt hte emotional crisis of being raped is unimaginable. And the emergency contraception argument assumes a rational response to what is not a rational situation.

Thursday, August 16, 2007, 12:08 PM

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7.30 back.

8.31, While I agree that the women in the situations you described are not thinking rationally, does being under the influence of alcohol/drugs/or other problems make you expempt from the consequences? If a someone is drunk and attakcs someone, are they not charged with harrassment/abuse/etc? If someone is under the influence of drugs and they drive and hit someone, do they not get charged with murder? I understand that some women may do things they regret after being under the influence of something; however, this does not leave them exempt of the consequences of your actions.

and 6.52/12.08 - I admitted that I couldn't truly know what I'd do, as I've never been in your situation. And although your story, as well as the same one millions unforutately share, is saddening and heartwrenching (I really am not being sarcastic either, what you went through is depraved and horrid), we can't base our law system on ad hominem basis, since 'humane' comes into play on both sides of the story. Issues like this is why I support this new law, of 1 trimester to decide. Personally, I hate when pro-choicers yell "what about in the cases of rape and maternal danger?!?", because that is completely different. You didn't have a choice in that matter, for sex, and most definately no say in use of a condom, or the terms of the pregnancy. However, if you get pregnant because you made a stupid decision, abortion shouldn't be an option for you. YOU were stupid, not the child you want to abort. In the case of rape, 12.08, this law allows you to find out if you're pregnant, and 13 weeks is more than enough time to get over some of the shock and realize what needs to be done.

Also, not much in life is always rational. Sometimes, you just have to be rational or deal with the ramifications after.

Thursday, August 16, 2007, 4:39 PM

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do they have to deal with the consequences???!!! are you joking? yes, they have to deal with emotional rejection, damaged health, and sometimes a pregnancy. they way some women choose to deal with the consequences of an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy is to get an abortion. isn't that the point of the whole discussion? if we could help people, not just women because they do not get pregnant on their own, learn to better handle the obstacles that they might face and teach them that coming from a broken or abusive home is not a life sentence, we can refocus the whole topic. people who commit a crime while drunk are not comparable to someone who experiences a biological change in their body as a result of being drunk. the drunk criminal puts others in danger.

Thursday, August 16, 2007, 4:47 PM

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I read a sticker once that said:
Stupid should hurt.
I liked the sticker. It fits so much of the time.

Friday, August 17, 2007, 1:33 AM

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It's easy to say "life at any cost" when the child pays the cost.

Friday, August 17, 2007, 6:59 AM

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So if you kill it then it pays nothing.

Friday, August 17, 2007, 7:26 AM

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If it feels no pain, then it does pay nothing. It hasn't experienced suffering. It has gone down the better path. Why is this so hard to accept?

Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 9:41 AM

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for the same reason this thread keeps coming up to the top. everyone has an opinion on the matter and wants to share it and convince others to do things their way or no way.

Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 9:48 AM

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I LOVE KILLING BABIES !!

Abortion should only be legal at 2 weeks or less

at 3 weeks, THE BABY has a heartbeat

at 8 weeks the baby has arms, legs, fingers, toes

at 12 weeks, the baby begins to move and kick, suck their thumb,smile etc

if you get an abortion past week 8, for reasons other than to save your own life, you deserve to be sodomized by a thick 13 inch penis, and then stoned to death.

MURDERER

i think any woman who gets an abortion should be forced to watch their baby with the new, womb cameras to see what they are killing.



Tuesday, November 13, 2007, 10:54 PM

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Aw, 10:54, are you so desperate for a little attention that you need to spew nonsense in an anonymous forum for kicks? Poor thing. Now go take the happy pills.

Tuesday, November 13, 2007, 11:02 PM

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For all of you that think abortion is okay -

you're WRONG. I have been on both sides of the fence. When I was younger I had one and thought nothing of it. Now that I am a mother, it haunts me daily. I now volunteer for an organization that councels crisis pregnancies and abortion is not the answer.

Yes, it's a woman's right to choose, but abortion is still the wrong choice.

For those of you that refer to an unborn child as a "fetus" - well yes, scientifically and/or medically speaking it is a fetus, but DON'T forget what "fetus" means :

fe·tus /'fit?s/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fee-tuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -tus·es. Embryology. (used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.

SOUNDS LIKE LIFE to me!!! C'mon, "body structures are in the recognizable form" - how can anyone deny this is a life we are talking about???


Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 1:46 PM

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I don't know... You might have me convinced if the definition were "with functional brain activity, evidence of memory, and awareness of surroundings and environment."

Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 2:41 PM

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2:41 You are an insensitive being

I don't know whether you are male or female and I suppose it doesn't matter. You will truly be remorseful for that comment if and when you have children.

And if you already do have children, then I cannot understand how you could make a sick comment like that.



Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 2:49 PM

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Is this where we're heading?

Article about Nicaragua's law which bans all abortions under all circumstances. It discusses how women are dying from troublesome pregnancies, and doctors are afraid to help them because abortion is illegal even when it is the only way to save a woman's life!

In the US, it is still legal in the first trimester, but not in the second or third. So, having an abortion will save the woman but kill the baby, and not having the abortion will cause both to die. But somehow the law says that both must die. Makes no sense!

And I totally don't understand how the 2:41 poster is seen as insensitive. She appears to be right on the mark! How many of you anti-abortionists are also vegans and do not kill spiders, rats, etc., that are in your home, etc.? Because even those creatures are aware of their surroundings and have brain activity and memory, along with all those things in the definition of fetus. So if you're not vegan but you are an anti-abortionist, you are a hypocrite.

Link

Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 3:15 PM

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You know what? If a woman is stupid enough to not use contraception and gets pregnant, and then gets an abortion and there are complications, possibly death, well so be it.

It's odd that people are upset about the possibility of the woman's health being in jeopardy, but don't care about her unborn child, who by the way, HAS NO VOICE.

Look deep into your core beliefs and morals, and then decide where you really stand on this issue.

Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 3:34 PM

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Sanctimonious anti-abortionists are examples of what happens when there aren't enough abortions in this world. If you'd all be vacuumed out of your mother's wombs, the world would be a much better, equal place.

Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 4:01 PM

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Crime rate has significantly decreased b/c of Roe vs. Wade.
The mothers who aborted knew they could not care for their children.


Abortion is not the decision of the government!!!

Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 4:52 PM

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For those of you who call anti abortionists hypocrites, look at yourself...if someone outright shoots someone and MURDERS them, or rapes and kills a child, you want that person behind bars, even given the death sentence, but in the case of an innocent being, you could care less, if a baby could be inconvenient, well then kill it.

WTF to that!

Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 5:19 PM

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I personally could not have one, but I am not going to force my "morals" on someone else and the government has ABSOLUTELY no place in doing so.

Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 6:06 PM

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All those idiots who are suggesting that contraception is the womans choice and then after that they should have no choice do not realise that sometime contraception DOESN'T WORK.

You can take lots of precations but it does not change that humans are hard wired to have babys.

But I have to accept that nothing I or anyone else can say can change what those nosy, uneducated, abstenance pushers think.

All I can say is that they should stay out of it. It has nothing to do with god, or christianity. Just the woman, who will make the desision for herself no matter how much you protest.

stop trying to make yourself feel big by forcing your veiws on someone who is making one of the most difficult desision of her life, and needs you to stay the hell out so she can make it.

Saturday, April 25, 2009, 9:30 PM

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I am very pro-abortion, but I feel like there should be an understanding that it's selfish to wait. The chance of the baby suffering increases daily.

Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:05 PM

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Pro-Choice

I am pro-choice. I think there are circumstances where an abortion maybe best for all involved. I don't think we should judge women who make this choice as I'm suring they're suffering enough guilt without anyone else putting thier ten cence in.

I do however think the decision to have an abortion should be done so in the first trimester. I understand not everyone knows they are pregnant prior to thier second trimester but I think the baby is a person by that point - Just my opinion and I personally wouldn't do this but I'm not in a situation where I need to have one.

The person who said a person needs to have an abortion within 2 wks is not being a bit silly - most people don't even know they're pregnant in the first few weeks. You have no right to talk to people like that, you should not call anyone a murderer for what was prob the most difficult decision of thier life. Same to 3.34pm, it is not your decision to make if someone decides to have an abortion. Also 5.19pm - if a women is raped should she be forced to have that child? You talk about all these criminals but what about that situation?

CONTRACEPTION IS NOT 100%!!!!

Wow, what it must be like to live in some of your ivory towers.....people in glass houses......must be great to be such a perfect human who has never amde a mistake....


Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:35 PM

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I think if more people were particular about the people they slept with, we wouldn't have such a huge issue. People would want to keep babies more if they were in a stable relationship with someone they would actually want to parent a child with. I think the issue stems more from the action of creating a child rather than what to do after the fact.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 9:38 AM

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know what you're talking about

1. A women's choice is hers and hers alone, what she does with her body is no one elses decision. It really pisses me off when people come out with their righteous and unfounded oppinions. Nobody has the right to tell a woman she has to have a baby" it's her body and her pregnancy! 2. I fell pregnant when i was using both the pill and the condom... and the egg only enters the womb at 5 weeks..i had mine at five weeks and 2 days, so how on earth can it have a heartbeat at 3 weeks! it's a formation of cells and not a baby. Funny how most of the negative feedback from people is about pro life...i'd like to see what you eat and where and what it came from..what about dairy and veal? Just because it's an animal it doesn't count aye? What if you haven't the money or the support..i see it every day and they just spunge off of the government, keep breeding and then their kids do the same...sorry this world is over populated as it is and i'm fed up of being a student, paying tax for my lazy neighbours who keep having children and sitting on their fat back sides doing nothing! You ask me...people should have less children these days

Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 12:39 PM

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"I think if more people were particular about the people they slept with, we wouldn't have such a huge issue. "

What an uninformed statement. Absolutely ignorant! Abortions are not just for those who get pregnant and make the choice to terminate a pregnancy.

It's also for people facing selective reduction due to infertility treatment. It's also for people who have severe medical complications due to being pregnant.

Yes, this is a very sad law that needs to be looked at from every angle.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 1:03 PM

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Yes, abortion is horrible. And it's horrible that any women has to make that decision. But until contraception is 100% effective and all women and men (yes, let's not forget that men have a role in this too) have access to education and contraception.. abortion will exist, whether legal or not.

For those who believe that abortion is wrong, how about getting out there and promoting sex education and availability of contraception instead of protesting at health care clinics that are trying to provide it?

You can do more to reduce abortions by promoting comprehensive sex education and access to contraception than you ever will holding up signs outside of Planned Parenthood.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 3:40 PM

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I wish all the people who are so very pro-life would first make sure that every child growing up in their country has loving care givers, health care, proper day care, healthy food, access to a proper education and doesn't grow up in a criminal environment. And when all these kids are taken care, go spend your time, effort and money on anti-abortion campaigns.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 4:13 PM

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response

4.13..nicely put and i totally agree! i already stated my oppinion early as it is a touchy subject..but situations such as rape, diabetes, cancer etc shoudln't even be up for discussion...it's insane to put an unborn child over a living person...if the women herself choses to put her life at risk so be it...but to make it illegal especially when it comes to life threatening is insane..and for those who don't think so..think of what that child will have to deal with knowing it was the cause of it's mothers death..if that be the case...be responsible for your own bodies..full stop....you are in charge of your own well being it is non of anyone's business how someone else choses to deal with these situations..as people like myself, we are the ones who deal with the after effect not a stranger and their domineering views.

Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 5:14 PM

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I'm not against abortion... if you can make up your mind in time... second trimester abortion is just wrong. Are you saying that just because it took you 12 or more weeks to decide its ok for that child to have to be ripped piece by piece? A second trimester Abortion is called a D and E Dilation and Extraction. The procedure is as follows. the mother's cervix must be dilated much more than in a first trimester abortion simply because her baby is now too large to pull it from the uterus solely by using the suction machine. the abortionist begins the D&E procedure by rupturing the amniotic sac which contains the unborn child. He then begins the process of dismembering the baby and pulling it out of the uterus in pieces.Sometimes, the baby's skull is too large to pull out of the uterus, so the abortionist must first crush it with the forceps. AND during all this the mother is comfortable because of the pain killers which the baby gets none of.

Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 2:01 AM

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abortion after 12 weeks

I am pro choice and no I do not think that asbortion should be taken lightly and it would be wonderful if all where preformed under 12 weeks or not at all but someone maybe pregnant and not even know it until close to the 12 th week or after and I do not believe they would choose to wait so long but do not judge unless you have been in these shoes. I myself could not but I would not condon someone that will have to remember this for a lifetime.

Tuesday, June 09, 2009, 11:47 PM

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Sometimes I wish my mother would have taken this route maybe there would be alot less children deprived and abused by their parents who will they never had them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tuesday, June 09, 2009, 11:51 PM

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The foetus is apparently not able to feel pain until about the 16th week of pregnancy when the spinal cord unites with the brain...any reflex movements away from a source of pain before 16 weeks are due to reflex only , as when we remove our hands from a hot stove before we actually feel pain..the pain nerve impulse has to reach the brain before we can feel pain.

In most clinics, the suction curettage method of termination can be performed until at least 16 weeks, and without forcible dilatation of the cervix Instead the cervix is slowly dilated overnight by dilapon or similar rods, which are gently inserted into the cervix and left to slowly moisten and swell, before surgery the following day.

I personally think that most people who are anti abortion, have just not been able to imagine how they would feel themselves if in other peoples circumstances.

I work in an abortion clinic and have done so for the past 30 years. We see many women asking for abortion who have been committed "anti abortionists" until the time when they actually became pregnant themselves in adverse circumstances. Many are courageous enough to confess their previous attitude, others no doubt, are not.

Often some religions forbid abortion and so indoctrinate their followers from an early age...these women have a difficult time when they decide that the wisest option is termination...often they fear " Burning in Hell " as a result.....They are usually somewhat reassured when it is pointed out that if any father today puts their disobedient child into a bonfire, they are today sent to prison...can they really believe in a God as described by their priests etc , who today would be jailed?! God is within each of us, and we need to find our own God within us for ourselves, not just blindly believe what we are told to believe.

My favorite quote from the Bible is "Judge not, lest you too be judged"

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 3:04 AM

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PP, most anit abortionist see it as a baby. That you kill when you abort. Period. End of story. It has nothing to do with the situation you are in. I've known of serveral who were raped but had their babies. I've also known those who were adopted because their birth mother was raped and she gave them up for adoption. Not one of them is scarred by this. Everyone of them is grateful to have been given the chance to live. I'm sure that is a difficult, painful thing to deal with. But it's a baby. Not a medical condition. As for those who can't afford another child or who are single...there are plenty of programs out there to help those who need the help. There is no good reason to abort a child. AND most of those women who do abort end up having great feelings of guilt and suffer depression afterwards.

You also need to read you Bible a bit more. It also says, "Thou shalt not kill."

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:57 AM

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It's always the people who've never been in a situation that toss out "there are plenty of programs to help." THAT'S A BUNCH OF HOOEY!! Seriously, I have seen the way these so called programs help out. They don't. There is not enough money in them, you have to jump through hoops to maybe get a crumb that isn't enough to pay jack, deadbeat dads can work under the table and never pay a dime of child support, and in the end, it's the kids who suffer. Seriously, until you've been through it from start to finish, birth to 18, don't toss out things you don't truly know about.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 9:55 AM

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this thread started in July 07 and it is still important to remember to pray for the unborn..and all the aperents whom have suffered the terrible complications that abortions create.


Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 10:25 AM

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I started typing this long response to 8:57's comments and erased it all. Here's my two cents:

Just because you don't agree with someone, doesn't mean you're right. That goes for both sides of the issue.

If you're against abortion, don't have one.
If you're for abortion, the opportunities should be there for you should you need one.

End of story, see ya later.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 10:26 AM

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10:25--you think abortion creates more complications? THAN WHAT? Higher taxes in a shitty economy paying for more kids born without two parents supporting them? More complications than a mother raising a child created by rape or incest? More complications than a set of parents who went through fertility treatment and needs to reduce or they will lose ALL their babies. More complications than more homeless, starving children because their parents are drug addicts? More complications than an undereducated teen mother getting pregnant and our tax money sending her through school, giving her welfare and food stamps, giving her free daycare, giving her housing assistance when tax paying people can't find jobs right now?

Really? It's more complicated than that?

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 10:30 AM

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Applauds to 10:30!! I am definitely pro choice. I did choose to keep my daughter and did manage to get her into college before losing my home in this economy. I was never on welfare but was on food stamps ~ but I paid in to the system for 27 years so I don't find it so draining or evil to take advantage now when I have paid in.

Teen pregnancy is a terrible thing and it's the children that suffer. We need to break the cycle and banning abortion wouldn't do that, it would do the opposite.

As for the context of the original post, 13 weeks is late enough. You can fudge if you want or need to, but 13 weeks to decide is more than enough.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 10:35 AM

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10:30 checking in.

Thanks 10:35! But in some cases 13 weeks aren't enough. I work at an infertility clinic with high risk patients coming in and sometimes they don't know until after 13 weeks about multi-fetal reductions or complications. For your average person, 13 weeks is enough to make the decision. But making a blanket rule for all isn't ok. There needs to be exceptions to every rule.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 12:00 PM

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Not everyone discovers that they are pregnant in time to get through the medical and legal hoops often required to obtain an abortion.
Some may have false periods even if pregnant, others have irregular periods anyway and few pregnancy symptoms, some of the most needy ie children, hide the pregnancy and hope it will just "go away"...there are many reasons why safe legal abortion should be available in the 2nd Trimester.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 12:25 PM

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What legal hoops? Abortion cannot be denied save one state. All that is just excuses. If you have sex, you know there's a risk. Sorry, I just don't buy the excuse of "not everyone knows" because that's bunk. There's no reason for abortion to be legal in the second trimester save certain medical conditions.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 1:02 PM

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You obviously know little about it!

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 1:52 PM

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@1:52 ~ I know a LOT about it. I've been in the medical field and in the insurance field and other areas, plus I'm an informed woman.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 2:32 PM

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You know what is interesting...those of us who debate this topic were never aborted. No matter what side you take.

We live, we breathe, our heart beats, our brains function we have no place to really debate except from the side of what we know and this is at the very basic level the fact that each of us does these things. We live. Whether its a great life or a crappy one that is not even relative to this debate.

I could go on but when you accept this premise it is a bit humbling.




Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 2:39 PM

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This is a very long thread...does anyone know what record we have to beat?
( this is, hopefully a diversion! )
It is strange how so few people can sit on the fence on this topic...most of us fall off one side or the other.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 2:48 PM

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@2:39 ~ sorry, not humbled at all. I was born when abortion was illegal so there's no way it could have happened to most people of my age. Back then women had no choice and some children grew up in abject poverty because their mothers were forced to keep them. Seriously, your argument is probably the weakest I've ever seen, certainly not the strong and humbling one you think you have.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 3:10 PM

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2:32--you'd be surprised how many patients come to our infertility clinic and we do a bHCG (quantitative blood pregnancy test) and find out their several months along already. When you are already having infertility issues and irregular ovulation cycles and periods, at some point you stop taking the tests.

However, like i said before, for the "normal" ovulating population, they know within a month.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 4:30 PM

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@4:30 ~ wouldn't the difference there be that these are people trying to get pregnant so abortion isn't even a consideration?

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 5:17 PM

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....so they are even more unlikely that those who have an unplanned pregnancy to miss the signs and symptoms....

Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 6:09 PM

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3:10

the very fact you sit at a computer and can debate is due to the fact you have life. Poverty is another topic entirely. The question is not what type of life a person is being born into, that is not the premise. The premise is to give life or not at a certain time of development and what limitations should be placed if any. This argument is the foundation of the debate.

If, we as people who were not aborted, can not acknowledge the very fact we can sit here and have the opportunity to live, think, enjoy life, discuss topics, and even realize for a moment that we all have this in common than how can a decision as important as this ever be reached?

No one here will be able to change another's opinion. We however, can all meet where we do have something in common and that whether you agree with me or not is that we are all alive an not aborted.


Saturday, December 26, 2009, 5:28 PM

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@5:28 ~ you tried to "humble" us all with your argument and I replied that you failed. You failed then, you fail now. Who says I wanted my life? Just because I have one doesn't mean I want it. See, your argument just doesn't work and doesn't "humble" me. It's a weak argument. So, I have life. Doesn't mean I wanted it with the parents I had. Sorry ~ as my daughter says ~ FAIL!

Saturday, December 26, 2009, 5:36 PM

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5:36

my goal is not to humble. It is to find some common ground and move from there . When topics such as these, are emotionally weighted it is difficult to look at each other as human and use words that are sound and appropriate to the original topic which was the concern over the passing of a bill about abortions.

Each of us brings our experiences to this topic and many times we are polarized due to our own issues. However, I believe that we can lean on the experience we have in common and I have already mentioned what those were.

I am glad PT has a link like this. It is healthy for a potentially intellectual discussion.

Saturday, December 26, 2009, 8:24 PM

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I am still struggling with where I stand on the 2nd trimester = 13 weeks. Why is this important?Is this because of only allowing first term abortions? I am not sure of this can someone answer this for me?

I am not sure where I stand on this. I am not looking to be converted. I see many sides of the issue. There are so many views and so many sides seem to skew information for or against abortion that it is hard to really make a clear choice and know where to stand.

I have had friends who regret their abortions and feel tons of guilt. I also have other friends who work for an abortion clinic and praise the ability to make a choice. Anyway, I think that it will be done behind closed doors unsafely if its completely banned. That's how it was before...but it was not incredibly common (so I am told)

Saturday, December 26, 2009, 8:52 PM

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My biggest issue is those that assume if you are "pro-choice" that means you are "pro-death to babies" which is profoundly untrue. It is possible to be pro-choice and choose to keep your child. It is also possible to be pro-choice and agree that another can have an abortion. It is also possible to be pro-choice and think it's okay to have a first trimester abortion but not a second. That's the thing ~ CHOICE. Pro-choice doesn't = pro-death for all.

Sunday, December 27, 2009, 8:57 AM

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Either way, the original poster is 100% correct. It is vitally important that as women we protect our rights in this area. God Bless the brave women who fought for this in the 70s for all of you today. NEVER give up whatEVER rights you have! You can choose to have your baby if that is your desire, but it is equally important that you can choose to not if you didn't intend to be pregnant. It is also vitally important to ensure that you use the proper methods to avoid it if you do not want to be pregnant.
Remember, there is no such thing as Pro Abortion. It is Pro Choice. Don't let 'them' tell you otherwise! Keep fighting, Strong Women!!

Sunday, December 27, 2009, 1:25 PM

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This is a weightloss/fitness website !

Are you so lame that you don't have your own friends to discuss political views and views on abortion with? I think you only posted this here to get everyones attention. Peer Trainer is for Weight Loss SUPPORT! Get a life!

Sunday, December 27, 2009, 6:36 PM

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I do believe the previous poster is the one who "needs a life" since he's got issues with people talking about everyday things and must feel the need to compartmentalize things.

Sunday, December 27, 2009, 7:15 PM

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5:17 on 12/23

this is 4:30 on same day.

The answer to your question is no. Anyone doing infertility treatment has to face a decision of multi-fetal reduction PRIOR to undergoing treatment. In the California case of which 8 babies were born and 6 embryos transferred (see side note), you can see that embryos created through ART (assisted reproductive technologies) can still divide. Therefore, even if 2 embryos were transferred to the uterus, they can still split, causing major health concerns for fetuses and mother, leaving the parents with a bigger decision to reduce or not to reduce.

You also have situations where it is determined at the 16 wk ultrasound that the fetus has grave health concerns and will not continue to a viable delivery.

People going through infertility treatment must look at reduction or elimination more than that of the average population.

SIDE NOTE: The physician (or moron) who treated octomom has lost his license to practice medicine. If anyone is doing infertility treatment, ask how many embryos are transferred or how many follicles is too many to do an insemination. If they don't give you a straight answer RUN for the door. Six was 3x what the average clinic would have transferred.

Monday, December 28, 2009, 12:30 PM

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@12:30 ~ as you completely missed the point, I did not bother to read your diatribe. Try again to see what I was saying in relation to the OP and then maybe you'll actually see the point.

Monday, December 28, 2009, 1:24 PM

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I see someone forgot to take their bipolar meds today. Or maybe their Midol.

Your question was:

@4:30 ~ wouldn't the difference there be that these are people trying to get pregnant so abortion isn't even a consideration?


My response was right on with the OP's post and with your question. These people ARE trying to get pregnant, however, they MUST consider abortion and sometimes into their 2nd trimester. Therefore, this blanket law isn't right for everyone.

When you take your prozac and can debate a clean debate like an adult, you let us know.



Monday, December 28, 2009, 3:46 PM

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To the above poster. Your response we informative. I appreciate that and the maturity. I am suprised at how when ADULTS do not know how to repsond to questions their reponses are quite childish. But that's another soap box

I just wanted to thank you and let you know that the information you posted was just that; information and non-biased.

Monday, December 28, 2009, 4:02 PM

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3:46 checking in

It's important for everyone to remember that we're not all going to agree on each others opinions, views, or morals. I was taught years ago in debate class to open your mind and close your mouth and listen to the other side of the argument. That's one of the best life lessons I have ever had. I have learned so much by doing this and it helps me to understand the other side of the story. Including this one.

I stand by my original post: if you are pro life--then don't have an abortion. But the option needs to be there for so many reasons.



Monday, December 28, 2009, 4:32 PM

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I totally agree. Rather than get focused on agendas and such as many sides need to listen to each other and learn from the other rather than judge. Our commonalities are what will resolved this issue in congress. Meanwhile, as individuals we need to honor each others opinions, and without malice just listen.

Monday, December 28, 2009, 4:57 PM

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@3:46 ~ the OP is talking about people who have waited until the 2nd trimester because they don't know. If someone is in infertility treatment, they know almost IMMEDIATELY that they are pregnant. Abortion and SELECTIVE REDUCTION are two entirely different things and two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT moral thought processes. Selective Reduction has its own set of moral issues from abortion. Abortion is not Selective Reduction so you did NOT address my question, you answered in regards to a completely different procedure.

And I am neither bipolar or premenstral ~ that is an immature comment and goes hand in hand with your next diatribe that still doesn't address my original statement nor does it address the OP.

Monday, December 28, 2009, 5:43 PM

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with infertility treatments, as the one that the poster mentioned that produced 8 babies, the decision to abort would be very similiar as a 'normal' pregnancy. One does not know with treatments if they are pregnant immediatly nor do they know immediatly how many babies there are.

'Selective reduction' at 12 weeks is considered an abortion at 12 weeks. The only difference is how the mother became pregnant.



Monday, December 28, 2009, 6:23 PM

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Morally ~ selective reduction and abortion are two different things. I've actually never heard, until this board, of selective reduction being termed abortion. It is always referred to as "selective reduction". They don't even have the same ICD-9 and CPT codes.

Monday, December 28, 2009, 6:29 PM

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6:29...I think you make a good point about the codes being different. Morally, they would have to be different for insruance and ethical purposes for doctors and patients. Becuase, morally, a doctor can not suggest an abortion but can suggest 'selective reduction' when there are MANY babies involved as is the pregnany. If the numbers were the same than ethics boards all over the place would be getting sued and malpractice insurance (that is already sky high) would be off the charts.

I am sure this is common in other medical procedures as well in order to support ethical standards and moral obligations.

That would make sense in light of the original posters observation about the 12 week abortion law.



Monday, December 28, 2009, 6:51 PM

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just to clarify I am not sure I consider selective reduction (the procedure) as an absolute abortion, but are similar procedures. But when laws are being made and political platforms get sticky these are the types of issues that come up...espeically considering the 12 week debate and law now passed.

With infertitily issues there are questions about the embryos (is that considere a life or not), how to ethically handle that. Political lobbying...who lobby's, who makes the decsions, who defines what as what. The far right may say selective reduction = abortion. The far left is meh...so what.

Monday, December 28, 2009, 7:08 PM

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6:29--I don't think emotionally you can tell an infertility patient they aren't having an abortion based on insurance coding.

Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 10:15 AM

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5:43

Where in the OP does it state people people waiting until the 2nd trimester because they don't know?

No, they are not two different procedures:: you are still aborting fetuses no matter the reason.

Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 10:18 AM

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@ 10:18 ~ MORALLY, yes they are two different procedures. The debate against abortion and selective reduction are night and day to a very great many people.

Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 10:55 AM

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Wow! What a topic! This is such a touchy topic that I've never been able to have a conversation with someone about it and not be judged for my beliefs. This could be the perfect place for my #1 question about abortion.
My stance:
I'm prolife...I believe that a life is formed at conception. It doesn't matter when hearts start beating, nerves start working, or the brain start functioning. I also believe that every person is put on this earth for a reason no matter how that person got here. To clarify, I am a Christian, I am a conservative Christian, and if I were horribly raped and found I was pregnant, I WOULD have the baby. It may be hard, and I may give it up for adoption, but I couldn't abort the child.

I do understand the stance of a woman's right to chose what she does with her body. I just believe that more than one life is at stake here.

My #1 question:
How do most who are prochoice think about the fetus? It is a life? If you do believe it is a life, how can you be prochoice when you aren't giving the child a chance to have it's life?

Thanks...and please, be nice. This could be a great conversation as long as we don't start bashing each other!

Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 5:47 PM

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well, if you read the above post the bashing has already started for some.

I am pro life and I have watched a great friend of mine continue a pregnancy when she knew the baby would not be born alive for very long. It was difficult but she was so grateful she did it. I was prochoice until I watched her struggle and stand up for what she believed.

My biggest concern is that if abortions are not allowed will women be killing themselves by getting them done behind closed doors? This happened in the past when they were not legal.

Using abortion as birth control is another subject entirely

Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 11:46 PM

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13 weeks is a good cut off time. This is well into a pregnancy and NO women will not be killing themselves to get abortions like they did in the 60s. It is ridiculous to compare the two time periods. The law isn't taking away all abortion rights, it's just putting a cut off time on when you can have one. That's a reasonable thing to do or else people will start selecting gender. "if it's not a boy, I'll abort" type thing. A cut off of X week is indeed reasonable for all intents and purposes.

Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 7:39 AM

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PP, you didn't answer the question of 5:47. How DO you believe a woman's choice is more important than a child's life? (I don't at all mean that in a bashing way. I just can't think of another way to ask the question. It is just that, a question.)

There would possibly be more deaths for women attempting to receive black market abortions. The clinics would not be regulated in any way since they would be illegal, and that would certainly lead to unsafe situations.

And isn't birth control the main reason abortions are done? I know there are other circumstances, but isn't the primary reason because the child was unintentionally conceived and therefor unwanted?

Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 8:45 AM

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to 7:39: reasaonable responses by women who are preganant and don't want to be are not to be expected. Meaning, after 14 weeks she decides she does not want the baby she may panic. This does not happen all the time but it does happen enough to be concerned about.

8:45...as far as 'unwanted' children I know about 30 infertile couples who would care for an 'unwanted' child. The mother doesn't want to experience the pain of being pregnant, giving birth, and giving their baby for a stranger to raise. I rarely believe children are Totally unwanted.

Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 12:01 PM

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To 8:45 am ~ I am not in the habit of reading every post. I responded with an opinion not in reply to any one particular post. If I respond to a post, you'll know it.

Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 1:07 PM

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