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Animal milk vs vegetable
animal vs plant
I also agree animal milk is meant to nurish animals ie. cows etc. humans and animals wean their young because mothers milk is no longer needed. Just because we CAN drink it doesn't mean we should. I agree we should be getting our nutrients elsewhere. Myself, I love soy milk, it is an aquired taste, once you get used to it it is very tasty. Cows milk is also an aquired taste, most of us were given a bottle of the stuff when we were babies it became a comfort food hence aquired. I feel babies should be weaned to something other then animal milk even if it is plain water
Mon. Jan 16, 7:58pm
I agree completely. Animal milk (and products derived from it) are intended for baby animals. We should not drink their milk. Over 30% of the American population is lactose intolerant. The body naturally stops producing lactase around age 2 or 3, when children were typically weaned from their mothers. Milk is very much a "cultural" thing, not a "natural" thing as the dairy farmers of America would have you believe.
The way in which dairy cows are treated is despicable. They are forced to give birth so that they will start producing milk, and their infant calves taken almost immediately away from them. They are then pumped full of hormones to maximize milk production -- which we humans ingest. Furthermore, in the United States there are "dairy" cows and "beef" cows. What happens when a male calf is born to a dairy cow? It gets to spend its life in a tiny stall in which it cannot move so that it can become veal.
The thing that really angers me about the dairy industry is the way in which they advertise. Especially those "happy cows come from California" commercials. Contrary to popular belief, cows are not allowed to roam free. They are usually kept in very confined spaces (so that they don't move around much and expend energy - that would be a waste of feed) and fed other dead cows, chicken feces, and other things that you wouldn't think of consuming until they are carted off to be slaughtered.
The other thing that upsets me is the "drink milk to lose weight" claim. That research was done by a researcher from Kentucky on a grant from - guess who - the dairy industry. Drinking milk/eating yogurt will not aid in weight loss. You'd be better off eating broccoli or romaine lettuce (more calcium per calorie than milk) and drinking water. Calcium needs can actually be met 100% without supplementation or drinking milk/consuming dairy products.
Monday, January 16, 2006, 8:34 PM
while I think the OP and the second poster are the same, and while they appear to be the usualy vegan or vegetarians, I'll agree that I think dairy is significantly over emphasized in our culture. (For the record though, nothing I love more than bbq'd cow)
You don't need dairy for calcium. Dairy certainly isn't the best means of getting calcium. And yes, all the "studies" that promote dairy consumption, and the commercials, are from dairy producers who don't care about your health, they care about their bottom line.
I never drink milk, I don't eat yogurt. I'll have the occasional cheese or icecream. But at most, it's 4 servings a week- certainly none of this 3 a day garbage promoted on TV.
Monday, January 16, 2006, 11:54 PM
I realize this is probably going to start a flamewar but I like milk. I have no problem with humans drinking it...nothing about humankind is "natural". We build homes out of synthetic materials, we have an economy, we have clothes that are more than just a way to protect ourselves... Our entire existance is so far removed from how it was when we "began" that you have to work REALLY hard to convince me with "it's not supposed to be like this".
I was a vegan for a while until I realized I myself didn't agree with most vegans (I just didn't like the taste of meat). Humans are pretty much at the top of the food chain (excluding the rare run-in with a great white shark...) so if I want to eat bessie for dinner, so be it. And yes, I realize that farms tend not to treat animals well but they are being raised as food, not pets.
As for biased studies, you will find them in EVERY industry on this planet. OBVIOUSLY, certain interests fund studies that predictably have results in their favour. And full studies are rarely published, the interests obviously publicize what works out in their favour. That's where being able to think independantly comes in. I'm sure you've heard the saying "take it with a grain of salt"???
I'm really trying not to be a horrible person here (although I know I come across as one...I just can't seem to word things in a better way) but I think this subject is one that generally just gets people all riled up. It's pretty hard to change people's minds on the subject and people just get angry, thinking the other side is ignorant or too extreme.
And now, after thinking about milk for this long I really want a chocolate chip cookie...and it's only 9:30am. ;o)
Tuesday, January 17, 2006, 9:41 AM
a plug for soy milk from a meat-eater
Just have to say, even if you aren't vegetarian, it is worth trying soy milk. I switched over from reg dairy to soy 4 years ago and I swear it changed my life, no joke. I had had IBS (irritable bowel syndrome) problems so long that I didn't even realize it wasn't normal (stomachaches, gas, diarrhea, constipation). By switching to soy milk I was able to cut out dairy entirely for awhile (too hard to do otherwise). If you have any stomach troubles, just try dropping dairy for 2 weeks. The best tasting IMO is Silk, plus it blends into coffee best (the trad asian ones take a bit of getting used to if you're used to cows milk).
Now I eat: soy milk, reg yogurt, hard cheeses, other stuff only in small quantities, and I very seldom have stomachaches.
Tuesday, January 17, 2006, 10:17 AM
(some) people are evolved to drink cow's milk
People have been dairying for thousands (probably tens of thousands) of years. Dairy products provided reliable (you don't have to hunt for it) sources of proteins and fats for African, Mediterranean, and European peoples when those nutrients were much harder to come by than they are now.
As a result, people have adapted to drink cow's milk. No kidding! In times and places of less plenty, there was a strong selective advantage to being able to digest lactose. Genes favoring lactose digestion are common among Mediterranean peoples, Scandinavians, and the Maasai, and they seem to have become fixed in these populations independently.
Holden, C. and Mace, R. 1997. Phylogenetic analysis of the evolution of lactose digestion in adults. Human Biology 69(5):605-628.
Link goes to PubMed abstract
Tuesday, January 17, 2006, 10:40 AM
regarding the post above mine
Thanks for that link! Very interesting!
(I'm not being sarcastic...I actually found it interesting)
Tuesday, January 17, 2006, 12:43 PM
Silk Soy Milk is very expensive - as is soy cheese, soy yogurt, etc... - are there any alternatives that are cheaper?
Also, I just have to throw in my two cents... I stopped eating red meat for several years after watching a video in 8th grade called "Where's the Beef?" - a documentary about the beef industry. It was disgusting how the meat is handled, etc... But, I came back to red meat several years later because my body STILL craved it! I try to only eat small portions, and I don't eat it often, but I definitely believe that humans are "meant" to eat red meat - we've always been hunters/gatherers!
And, as for the inhumane treatment of the animals, yes, if you think about it, it's very cruel. However, those animals wouldn't have ever been born if they hadn't been bred to become food. It's just like the rows of corn that are planted across the country, which wouldn't be there if they hadn't been planted. One of our huge evolutionary leaps was the development of farming techniques. That's what allowed humans to stop having to forage for food, and spend time developing things like simple tools. It's the basis of our entire society! You don't rise to the top of the food chain by being nice - does anyone think that lions or sharks are nice to their prey? Of course not!
Tuesday, January 17, 2006, 12:59 PM
To the most recent poster:
I would have no problem with you eating meat if you went out and shot and killed it yourself. The fact that you let others do your dirty work is wrong. It would have been better off if those animals were never born, because they are only born to suffer. Animals have souls - domestic or not. Would you eat a puppy? Probably not, because you associate some cognition with them. Also, it is like those farm animals are born into hell.
Your above comments are extremely speciest - we rose to the top of the food chain, etc. If it came down to it, you vs. a lion, you would be killed without modern tools. Even if you had a gun, you might still be killed. But the lion would eat you for food because he needed to. Humans no longer need to kill other living beings to survive (nor have they ever). The cultivation of grains allowed society to develop, not the advent of farming animals.
Tuesday, January 17, 2006, 7:59 PM
You vegans talk about how horrible life is on the farms. Well, I moved out into the country 10 years ago, and I can't really say that I have become an admirer of the way that wildlife treats each other. It's a jungle out there! I hear screams when the coyotes and owls hunt - I can't believe that's a more pleasant way to go compared to the stun gun. Seems like a little crowding in the barns has a certain positive relativity to the natural life. I have gotten to know a lot of ranchers out here and I pass their cattle and sheep every day on my commute into town. Really doesn't look like such a bad life. (The chickens I'm not sure about...I have visited my local farmer's market to see about organic range fed chickens to let my money encourage the practices I agree with.) And the farmers and ranchers I know are some of the most decent human beings I have ever met. So, I don't think things are so terrible as you vegans make it out to be. I respect your right to eat whatever you want (plants scream, too, I heard), and whatever works for your body, you should feel free to do. I will do the same for me. And I do like animals very much and think that the truely cruel practices need to be controlled - they don't reflect our values. Other than that, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Skoal!
Tuesday, January 17, 2006, 9:34 PM
soy = $$$
Yeah, but its worth it for me. I don't need to buy soy yogurt or cheese, since the bacteria eat up most of the lactose. And soy ice cream sucks! (fruit sorbet is good though). The cheaper soy milks are fine too, just more pasty.
And a plug for finding common ground (as a meat eating animal lover who dates a vegetarian) -- yes, animals are certainly treated cruelly, and that's terrible. For most of us though, its very hard to avoid craving protein, and the few high-protein alternatives aren't great or readily available. However, a lot of people can get behind the ideas of A) better regulation of factory farms and B) eating LESS meat, having more alternatives available. Things are improving, it used to be hard to get tofu in a regular grocery store. You know, a single good tofu recipe probably saves more animal lives than a guilt trip. Here's my boyfriend's:
Easy But Yummy Tofu Stir Fry
chop up broccoli, red peppers, onions, and spinach
push around in pot with a little oil on the bottom
add chopped pieces of tofu (firm will hold together better, but regular works)
throw in some bottled stirfry sauce or curry sauce (eg TJ's Curry Simmer Sauce)
serve over white rice
Tuesday, January 17, 2006, 11:35 PM
Lactose "intolerance" as we call it is actually the NATURAL state of human digestion. We are designed so that the lactic enzymes we possess as babies naturally disappear as we are weaned off milk. So human beings are not designed to drink milk after infancy and it causes all sorts of problems in human digestion even if you can tolerate it, you aren't digesting it. Even so, cow's milk is grossly more fatty and void of nutrients than human milk ever is through pasteurization (though would you want to drink raw milk either, I didn't think so). Also cow's milk is designed for the baby cow to gain something like 500 pounds in a year, not for an infant human's brain development.
Secondly, Caucasians tend to be more able to digest dairy but this results from the fact that traditionally they consumed more and also they have a genetic abnormality where their lactic enzymes don't disappear as programmed to. Let's not discriminate against lactose "intolerant" people as lacking something when they are perfectly normal and white milk-drinkers are the genetic mutations (lol, no offense). Go vegan!
Wednesday, February 13, 2008, 1:16 PM
Another Consideration: Environmental Impact
I suppose this is slightly off topic, but you also have to consider the serious negative impact that consuming meat (and drinking milk) has on the environment. It puts "extreme pressure on Earth's limited resources, including water, land, feed, and fuel" as the article below points out. I'm not completely vegetarian/vegan, but I maintain a mostly vegetarian diet for environmental/ethical reasons. I drink soy milk and have soy butter but I can't quick make the transition to soy cheese/almond cheese...so I buy cheeses that are locally made & from those "happy cows from California." On the VERY rare occasion that I *do* eat meat. I make sure the steak/chicken comes from local ranches with ethical practices (i.e. grass-fed, free range, hormone free). It's not the easiest thing to do but it's doable if you do your research and you'd be surprised how easily the weight comes off when you cut down on animal products. Plus you learn how to be creative in incorporating delicious roots, exotic vegetables and grains (quinoa..yum!) into your diet. Healthy and happy (and ethically) eating everyone!
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 1:21 AM
More the Environmental Impact
Here's another link to a recent NY Times article about the "meat guzzler."
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 2:16 AM
Humans are not the only ones that are lactose intolerant, animals are to - how do you explain that one?
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 8:55 AM
If dairy is so bad and "unnatural", then why do vegans need soy beans to be weirdly altered into pseudo milk and cheese? To make up for their nutritional shortcomings.
Enjoy the crapload of phytoestrogens contained in soy - it increases the chance that your breasts will hate you so much for this habit that they'll leave via the cancer surgeon's knife.
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 10:05 AM
What a horrible thing to say to another person. Have you ever known anyone with breast cancer? My god, what is wrong with you?
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 11:45 AM
OMG 10:15 That is the NASTIEST thing ANYONE has said on this site
There are sadly millions of women out there who have had breast cancer who DO NOT consume soy!!
Proving a point about how remarkably educated you are in such a crude form, is beyond repugnant. You are without a doubt the most evil, disgusting, malicious person I have ever encountered.
You have obviously never lost a loved one to cancer.
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 1:26 PM
Cows milk is full of antibitotics, steroids, hormones, and puss. Yes I said puss. If these things are in the milk you drink they are also in you. I myself I have milk on my cereal, in my coffee, I also have milk in cheese and things like that. But the idea of drinking a full glass of milk is very disgusting to me. Milk is a bodily fluid. Really a bodily fluid. I think they should have never taken us to visit that dairy farm when I was little in the 4H.
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 2:02 PM
I was just pointing out that the meat-and-dairy-are-evil crowd may be damaging themselves with the altered vegetable products that they're using as a substitute. I was under the impression that most people were aware that consuming more than 25g of soy protein a day is actually dangerous to those with a family history of breast cancer? No? Then I guess I was "maliciously" doing the uninformed a freaking favor. Google it. I'm right. Get over it.
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 2:08 PM
Soy is known to be problematic for anyone who is estrogen sensitive, which I personally am. I won't touch any soy product. And it's in soooooooooo many things, it can be hard to avoid.
Wheat and corn are also commonly used in fake meat products, and both are known allergens, arguably with many people suffering assorted symptoms because of undiagnosed allergies/intolernces.
The "Commercial" vegetarian diet of processed soy products, "veggie protein" and the like isn't healthy. Actually making meat subs your self with beans, lentils, sprouts, 'shrooms, etc., is healthy. But the position of vegetarians advocating consumption of soy products and any kind of fake meat disgusts me.
As for milk, nut or rice milk is a much much better option than soy milk. And, making nut milk from hazelnuts? Add a little cocoa and some agave nectar? OMG, sooooooooooooooooo good.
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 2:16 PM
No !! What you did was inhumane.
You are an insensitive B***H, do you think that all those families that have lost their mothers and sisters and daughters and aunts and grandmothers to this evil disease deserved it because the might just might have drank soy milk?
Hey I know you don't believe in sugar coating it or stroking someone's ego, but you are just heartless. Maybe you should think before you post
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 2:26 PM
anyone who find the breast cancer heartless needs to suck it up and move on. People in this world NEED to grow thicker skin. Was it rude, yes. Is calling her a whole bunch of names equally rude, yes. Two wrong date make a right.
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 3:33 PM
I know you didn't mean any harm.
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 3:53 PM
Well, whatever you do, don't eat tires! My mother in law had a diet strictly consisting of tires and she got breast cancer. :-)
Cancer is in everything! Take your damn antioxidants and eat what you think is healthy for cryin out loud. There is good and bad in dairy and good and bad in soy.
We're all gonna die, but I don't eat either so you will all die before me.
Juuuuuuuuust kidding. Don't come back bashing!
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 4:43 PM
2:26--don't put that shit on me!
2:26--I'm the one who commented weeks ago on sugar coating and ego stroking and believe me, i didn't make that comment. This is the very first time I actually looked at this thread. Once again, I get blamed for things other people say just because I said i won't stroke egos and sugar coat my opinion just to make people feel better about themselves.
DON'T BLAME ME WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THE HELL POSTED THAT!
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 4:56 PM
Boxing is cardio right?
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 5:50 PM
You can't be blamed because we don't know who you are. It's alright. Maybe you just have spread a lot of bad blood around. I am personally,a BIG FAN of your work!
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 5:52 PM
I eat tires everyday! They contain a lot of elastin which is good to prevent wrinkles and bruising. I find Michelins to be too chewy so I stick with Goodyear.
Thursday, February 14, 2008, 5:54 PM
5:52--I didn't spread any bad blood--everyone is accountable for their own actions, including me. But I am not taking the hit for some ridiculous comment about breast cancer.
Friday, February 15, 2008, 9:32 AM
I didn't think it was your style either. But people hear certain catch phrases and automatically assume they know. I get blamed for stuff like that too.
Friday, February 15, 2008, 9:44 AM
Thanks for the support 9:44. I'm glad I have a friend on PT. I'm not about being mean and offending, but I'm also not about patting people on the back and telling them it's ok to binge--that only makes it ok to do it again. I would rather say buck up, get off your ass, and don't do it again. Believe me, I say this to myself on a regular basis and it keeps me on my goals. If I don't beat myself up over these 5 pounds, I am going to let the next 5 pounds go and then the next 5. I want more for myself and I want more for others.
Friday, February 15, 2008, 10:00 AM
I am not 9:44. But I want to say this...
I completely agree with you. Here is what I don't get. What the hell are people here for? From time to time I check the public logs and people are complaining about this and that. i look at their food and they eat crap! So I give them a bit of advice (they are public you know) followed by encouragement and they turn around and rip my sh*t. TAKE YOUR LOG OFF PUBLIC THEN. If you don't want accountability, for the love of God, what are you doing here?????
Friday, February 15, 2008, 12:47 PM
12:47--this is 4:56--thank you, too, for your support. What you said is absolutely true. As soon as I bring up a different view point, or facts, I am suddenly the anti-christ and everyone damns me to hell. I can't say how much I LOVE my teammates when they go through my log and kick my ass when i'm not sticking to my goals. And I log my screw ups. I'm only shorting myself if I don't.
We should create a group called "shut up, quit whining and get a life" based on the book.
Friday, February 15, 2008, 1:25 PM
9:44 here I would join that group!
Friday, February 15, 2008, 1:59 PM
ROFL!!!! Thats what I'm talkin bout!
New group name... "Send someone to my house and beat me if I get off track"
That's the accountability I want. Otherwise, I am just spinning my wheels here.
Friday, February 15, 2008, 2:37 PM
Wow this thread has turned into a support group for all the a$$holes that insult others.
"Its alright, you shouldn't have been slammed for making such a hateful comment, its alright to hurt someones feelings..."
Maybe you could call your thread "Cows Unite"
Now I have seen everything.
Friday, February 15, 2008, 2:46 PM
Just saw on the news that obesity is now linked to a multitude of cancers,
so 10;05, I guess that means that the cheesburger you wolfed down the other day will come back to bite you in the ass - literally
Friday, February 15, 2008, 3:08 PM
Didn't realize that was news...you're a little slow off the mark, but I'm sure you're used to that, 3:08. Enjoy your soy milk.
Friday, February 15, 2008, 3:14 PM
3:08 and 2:46
Way to take the high road! You are examples to us all.
Friday, February 15, 2008, 3:36 PM
I guess that makes you the biggest hypocrite of us all.
Friday, February 15, 2008, 3:37 PM
I think they're just too "short bus" simple to formulate a real argument.
Friday, February 15, 2008, 3:44 PM
Veg or Meat Eaters alike...Just be mindful of what you consume. Read before you buy (if care about your body, about the environment) And everything in moderation. Stick close to what is natural and wholesome and I think we'll all be okay. Happy eating (and training)! That's what we're here for anyhow.
Sunday, February 17, 2008, 4:10 PM
12:47 and 1:25
How can I get into a team or a group with the two of you? I would LOVE to have someone chew me out when I forget to post, eat crap, or put off my running. I'm new to PT and so far I haven't found anyone who'll hear my pleas. Will anyone help save me from these huge lovehandles!?
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